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I always thought the name was just a little wink and a nod towards Java and nothing more. So I was surprised to see this in the press release: > complementary

by smcl 3y ago

I always thought the name was just a little wink and a nod towards Java and nothing more. So I was surprised to see this in the press release: > complementary to and integrated with Java Was this ever true around the time, and if so was it ever really used? I know that now we have a couple of JS implementations on the JVM, like Nashorn, that would represent some level of integration (you could call JVM methods from JS) but the idea that Javascript was "integrated with" Java back in 1995 sounds a little far-fetched.

skrebbel 3y ago
The whole point was to let websites interact with java applets on the site. If that’s not integration then what is? Either you’re splitting hairs or you’re forgetting that applets were touted as Java’s killer application at the time.
- smcl 3y ago
  Well I was 9 years old in 1995, didn't get the internet until 1999, and only started programming in 2001 (and even then it was Perl + C) so that was an honest question from someone who didn't experience any of this first-hand. If one of its original use-cases was to facilitate some kind of browser/applet integration then fair enough. But in the linked article there are only vague references to this that sound a bit weird or confused, like "the scripts would glue together an assortment of Java applets" or like "JavaScript will allow us to easily create personalized applets for the Excite service". I found some docs @ Oracle from ~2013 that demonstrate calling some applet methods, but I can't tell if that is a later addition or was present from the start: https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/deployment/applet/invokingAppletMethodsFromJavaScript.html https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/deployment/applet/in... edit: looks like Bill Joy himself said "JavaScript will be the most effective method to connect HTML-based content to Java applets" in the article, but I'm still curious how deep this connection is, or if it's just hand-wavy "our new tech is great and I have to tie it to another currently-popular tech somehow"
  - skrebbel 3y ago
    Fwiw if you really are asking an honest question, consider not calling things a little far-fetched, esp if said things were true. Anyway, I’m your age so I’m not 100% sure either but my understanding is that applets, for quite a while, were considered the software delivery platform of the future. Just open a webpage and get an entire end-user program running right there, no downloading or installing, nothing. It turned Netscape into something of a universal app store and people were very excited. JavaScript very much was intended to let the rest of the web page interface with the software program (the applet) running on it. Your excite quote shows a key use case: ship a generic compile applet in a site which contains user-specific data, write a little JavaScript to send the data to the applet and poof, it’s personalized! Magic. That success never happened though (and I’m not sure why), and most uses of applets I saw were of slow, ugly navigation menus with hover effects and stuff like that.
    - smcl 3y ago
      This isn't debate club or a courtroom, there aren't rules on how we can share how something sounds to us in an informal setting like this. If you want a nice discussion consider being a bit more polite, less confrontational and assuming good faith.
  - bazoom42 3y ago
    The intention was that Java components could be combined and scripted through JavaScript. Such a component-based development model had proven succesful in Visual Basic, and Netscape hoped to create something similar for client-side web development.
    - smcl 3y ago
      I think where I was confused is that the applets were already programmable and interactive, so I'm just not sure what throwing JS into the mix brings. But it could be that there's some functionality it gained (XHR, perhaps?) in the intervening period that it lacked at the time.
      - 3y ago
bazoom42 3y ago
Integrated in the sense that JavaScript and Java-applets on the same page could communicate through an API. It was certainly used, since I remember using it out of curiosity. I don’t think the use was widespread since it only worked in Netscape.
- mnd999 3y ago
  Netscape was pretty widespread for a while there.

by smcl 3y ago

skrebbel 3y ago

The whole point was to let websites interact with java applets on the site. If that’s not integration then what is? Either you’re splitting hairs or you’re forgetting that applets were touted as Java’s killer application at the time.

smcl 3y ago
Well I was 9 years old in 1995, didn't get the internet until 1999, and only started programming in 2001 (and even then it was Perl + C) so that was an honest question from someone who didn't experience any of this first-hand. If one of its original use-cases was to facilitate some kind of browser/applet integration then fair enough. But in the linked article there are only vague references to this that sound a bit weird or confused, like "the scripts would glue together an assortment of Java applets" or like "JavaScript will allow us to easily create personalized applets for the Excite service". I found some docs @ Oracle from ~2013 that demonstrate calling some applet methods, but I can't tell if that is a later addition or was present from the start: https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/deployment/applet/invokingAppletMethodsFromJavaScript.html https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/deployment/applet/in... edit: looks like Bill Joy himself said "JavaScript will be the most effective method to connect HTML-based content to Java applets" in the article, but I'm still curious how deep this connection is, or if it's just hand-wavy "our new tech is great and I have to tie it to another currently-popular tech somehow"
- skrebbel 3y ago
  Fwiw if you really are asking an honest question, consider not calling things a little far-fetched, esp if said things were true. Anyway, I’m your age so I’m not 100% sure either but my understanding is that applets, for quite a while, were considered the software delivery platform of the future. Just open a webpage and get an entire end-user program running right there, no downloading or installing, nothing. It turned Netscape into something of a universal app store and people were very excited. JavaScript very much was intended to let the rest of the web page interface with the software program (the applet) running on it. Your excite quote shows a key use case: ship a generic compile applet in a site which contains user-specific data, write a little JavaScript to send the data to the applet and poof, it’s personalized! Magic. That success never happened though (and I’m not sure why), and most uses of applets I saw were of slow, ugly navigation menus with hover effects and stuff like that.
  - smcl 3y ago
    This isn't debate club or a courtroom, there aren't rules on how we can share how something sounds to us in an informal setting like this. If you want a nice discussion consider being a bit more polite, less confrontational and assuming good faith.
- bazoom42 3y ago
  The intention was that Java components could be combined and scripted through JavaScript. Such a component-based development model had proven succesful in Visual Basic, and Netscape hoped to create something similar for client-side web development.
  - smcl 3y ago
    I think where I was confused is that the applets were already programmable and interactive, so I'm just not sure what throwing JS into the mix brings. But it could be that there's some functionality it gained (XHR, perhaps?) in the intervening period that it lacked at the time.
    - 3y ago

bazoom42 3y ago

Integrated in the sense that JavaScript and Java-applets on the same page could communicate through an API. It was certainly used, since I remember using it out of curiosity. I don’t think the use was widespread since it only worked in Netscape.

mnd999 3y ago
Netscape was pretty widespread for a while there.