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The definition of "proxy war" hinges upon being instigated by another party. Every narrative I've seen about Russia being some reluctant participant is full of

The definition of "proxy war" hinges upon being instigated by another party. Every narrative I've seen about Russia being some reluctant participant is full of holes or based on innuendo. If missiles were the problem, then why not attack those military assets and leave it at that? Having lost so much influence with your neighbor that they're cozying up to another sphere of influence to protect themselves still doesn't create a justification to conquer them, regardless of whether you call yourself a super/great power or not. Without the US instigating the war, heavy support (including intelligence sharing anyone with half a clue knew was going on) still does not constitute a proxy war. Like many narratives, "proxy war" falls apart under scrutiny. But it does sound edgy and contrarian if you don't examine it too closely. I do agree that there are some terrible realpolitik incentives here. The US isn't doing this solely for freedom and democracy, just like it wasn't in Iraq, regardless of the advertising for both. But that doesn't mean that Ukraine itself cannot be benefiting. Based on experiences of people who fled the previous Russian ("Soviet") empire, I can certainly see why they would choose this despite the cost. > seek peace over escalation This is the complete wrong framing for the defensive side of a war. Deescalating defense means that Russia will escalate attacks. I too had been lured by the hope that military might was becoming less relevant. But now Russia's actions have demonstrated that the peace we had (and still have, for the most part) is a product of military might.

lowkey 3y ago
The first casualty in war is the truth - and this applies to both sides. I don't expect to convince you that you may have been mislead about the origins of this war, but I will nonetheless try. The war didn't start in 2019, or even 2014, but in 2014 the US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland, was recorded plotting the overthrow of the democratically elected leadership of Ukraine and deciding who would replace him as was reported by the BBC, Reuters, Washington Post, NPR and NBC. [0][1][2][3] Before you respond with a counter-claim that Russia did something bad first thus justifiying the coup, I will concede that they may very well have done so, but this only proves my point that this is nothing more than an ongoing proxy war between these super-powers that has now gone from covert to kinetic. I fail to see how anyone can claim this is anything but a proxy war. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-audio-reveals-embarrassing-u-s-exchange-on-ukraine-eu-idUKBREA151VA20140207 https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-a... https://archive.is/EMGcA https://archive.is/EMGcA [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/in-purported-recording-of-us-diplomat-blunt-talk-on-ukraine/2014/02/06/518240a4-8f4b-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/in-pu... https://archive.is/WFmZJ https://archive.is/WFmZJ [3] https://www.nbcnews.com/video/audio-of-leaked-nuland-conversation-162208835907 https://www.nbcnews.com/video/audio-of-leaked-nuland-convers...
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > I fail to see how anyone can claim this is anything but a proxy war. Russia themselves talks about unifying Russia and how "1991" was a tragedy (1991 being when Ukraine got its independence) in their victory article that they mistakenly posted shortly after the war started. They don't mention a coup, or NATO or anything else. But don't take my word for it, take theres. https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20... >> Russia is restoring its unity - the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe of our history, its unnatural dislocation, have been overcome. Yes, at a high price, yes, through the tragic events of the virtual civil war, because now brothers separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies are still shooting at each other - but Ukraine will no longer be anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness by gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together - in its entirety of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had abandoned this, allowed temporary division to gain a foothold for centuries, we would not only betray the memory of our ancestors, but would also be cursed by our descendants - for allowing the collapse of the Russian land.
  - lowkey 3y ago
    I can see that you have studied this subject so I'm sure you can agree the real reasons here are multiple, complex and nuanced. They didn't invade for a single reason. Reality is more complicated. The Russians also went to the UN in 2022 with evidence claiming the US was funding multiple bioweapons labs across Ukraine - a claim that the west laughed off at the time but the US later begrudgingly admitted to having funded 46 such labs in Ukraine, over fears they would fall into Russian hands - calling them simply biolabs. RFK Jr actually alluded to this on video in the exchange that led to the NY Post and NY Times articles mentioned up thread. [0][1][2][3][4][5] Again, the first casualty in war is the truth - applies to both sides While Russia may have justified the invasion as restoring its unity, particularly regarding Russian-speaking Donbass and Crimea regions. It is clear that they also felt threatened by the prospect of hostile forces equipped with nuclear capable armaments and potential bio-weapons on their border only 450kms (280 miles) from their capital. The simplistic US=100% Good, Russia=100% Evil rhetoric must stop. It is leading us towards WWIII. A negotiated peace and de-escalation plan is the only sane path forward for humanity. We need to stop feeding the war machine and start genuinely seeking diplomatic solutions. [0] https://twitter.com/ANTlWEF/status/1680476815993741312?s=20 https://twitter.com/ANTlWEF/status/1680476815993741312?s=20 [1] https://twitter.com/i_Beth1/status/1671394045996974080?s=20 https://twitter.com/i_Beth1/status/1671394045996974080?s=20 [2] https://global.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202304/14/WS6438b13ea31057c47ebba156.html https://global.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202304/14/WS6438b13ea3105... [3] https://www.globalvillagespace.com/moscow-provides-more-evidence-of-us-biolabs-in-ukraine/ https://www.globalvillagespace.com/moscow-provides-more-evid... [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsZ9iv7VKIs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsZ9iv7VKIs [5] https://twitter.com/DavidKnestrick/status/1681373441864106000/video/2 https://twitter.com/DavidKnestrick/status/168137344186410600...

lowkey 3y ago

The first casualty in war is the truth - and this applies to both sides. I don't expect to convince you that you may have been mislead about the origins of this war, but I will nonetheless try. The war didn't start in 2019, or even 2014, but in 2014 the US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland, was recorded plotting the overthrow of the democratically elected leadership of Ukraine and deciding who would replace him as was reported by the BBC, Reuters, Washington Post, NPR and NBC. [0][1][2][3] Before you respond with a counter-claim that Russia did something bad first thus justifiying the coup, I will concede that they may very well have done so, but this only proves my point that this is nothing more than an ongoing proxy war between these super-powers that has now gone from covert to kinetic. I fail to see how anyone can claim this is anything but a proxy war. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-audio-reveals-embarrassing-u-s-exchange-on-ukraine-eu-idUKBREA151VA20140207 https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-a... https://archive.is/EMGcA https://archive.is/EMGcA [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/in-purported-recording-of-us-diplomat-blunt-talk-on-ukraine/2014/02/06/518240a4-8f4b-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/in-pu... https://archive.is/WFmZJ https://archive.is/WFmZJ [3] https://www.nbcnews.com/video/audio-of-leaked-nuland-conversation-162208835907 https://www.nbcnews.com/video/audio-of-leaked-nuland-convers...

_kbh_ 3y ago
> I fail to see how anyone can claim this is anything but a proxy war. Russia themselves talks about unifying Russia and how "1991" was a tragedy (1991 being when Ukraine got its independence) in their victory article that they mistakenly posted shortly after the war started. They don't mention a coup, or NATO or anything else. But don't take my word for it, take theres. https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20... >> Russia is restoring its unity - the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe of our history, its unnatural dislocation, have been overcome. Yes, at a high price, yes, through the tragic events of the virtual civil war, because now brothers separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies are still shooting at each other - but Ukraine will no longer be anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness by gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together - in its entirety of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had abandoned this, allowed temporary division to gain a foothold for centuries, we would not only betray the memory of our ancestors, but would also be cursed by our descendants - for allowing the collapse of the Russian land.
- lowkey 3y ago
  I can see that you have studied this subject so I'm sure you can agree the real reasons here are multiple, complex and nuanced. They didn't invade for a single reason. Reality is more complicated. The Russians also went to the UN in 2022 with evidence claiming the US was funding multiple bioweapons labs across Ukraine - a claim that the west laughed off at the time but the US later begrudgingly admitted to having funded 46 such labs in Ukraine, over fears they would fall into Russian hands - calling them simply biolabs. RFK Jr actually alluded to this on video in the exchange that led to the NY Post and NY Times articles mentioned up thread. [0][1][2][3][4][5] Again, the first casualty in war is the truth - applies to both sides While Russia may have justified the invasion as restoring its unity, particularly regarding Russian-speaking Donbass and Crimea regions. It is clear that they also felt threatened by the prospect of hostile forces equipped with nuclear capable armaments and potential bio-weapons on their border only 450kms (280 miles) from their capital. The simplistic US=100% Good, Russia=100% Evil rhetoric must stop. It is leading us towards WWIII. A negotiated peace and de-escalation plan is the only sane path forward for humanity. We need to stop feeding the war machine and start genuinely seeking diplomatic solutions. [0] https://twitter.com/ANTlWEF/status/1680476815993741312?s=20 https://twitter.com/ANTlWEF/status/1680476815993741312?s=20 [1] https://twitter.com/i_Beth1/status/1671394045996974080?s=20 https://twitter.com/i_Beth1/status/1671394045996974080?s=20 [2] https://global.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202304/14/WS6438b13ea31057c47ebba156.html https://global.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202304/14/WS6438b13ea3105... [3] https://www.globalvillagespace.com/moscow-provides-more-evidence-of-us-biolabs-in-ukraine/ https://www.globalvillagespace.com/moscow-provides-more-evid... [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsZ9iv7VKIs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsZ9iv7VKIs [5] https://twitter.com/DavidKnestrick/status/1681373441864106000/video/2 https://twitter.com/DavidKnestrick/status/168137344186410600...