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"It's the right message at the wrong time." I respect your position but I firmly disagree. This war was never about saving Ukraine. It is and has always been a

by lowkey 3y ago

"It's the right message at the wrong time." I respect your position but I firmly disagree. This war was never about saving Ukraine. It is and has always been a proxy war between two super-powers - primarily focused on weakening Russia and seeking regime change. [0] The US and NATO provide arms and funding while the young men of Ukraine are being killed at a rate of 7-1 vs Russia, with nothing to show for it but 300k dead Ukrainian young men. "I am all for peace and ending the war in Ukraine. But this is not an American political issue, but rather a Russian one." I am also for peace and ending the war in Ukraine - and I don't excuse the inexcusable actions of Putin. However, we need to get past the comic book depictions of US/NATO = Good, Russia = evil, and look at the world from the perspective of our opponent if we are ever to end the vicious cycle of endless wars. Russia repeatedly made it clear that bringing Ukraine into NATO was a red-line. Putting nuclear-capable US stinger missiles on Russia's border, 400 miles from Moscow able to decapitate their leadership in minutes was always a non-starter. It doesn't excuse Putin's invasion, but it does explain it somewhat. Imagine if Russia had nuclear capable missiles on the US border, say in Canada or Mexico. We would invade in a second. There are no good guys in war, only lies and propaganda from both sides. I want to see an end to the bloodshed and that requires us to seek peace over escalation. The only winners in war are those who make the guns and bombs. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/04/18/russia-ukraine-war-us-involvement-leaked-documents/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/04/18/... https://archive.is/0pGKh https://archive.is/0pGKh

mindslight 3y ago
The definition of "proxy war" hinges upon being instigated by another party. Every narrative I've seen about Russia being some reluctant participant is full of holes or based on innuendo. If missiles were the problem, then why not attack those military assets and leave it at that? Having lost so much influence with your neighbor that they're cozying up to another sphere of influence to protect themselves still doesn't create a justification to conquer them, regardless of whether you call yourself a super/great power or not. Without the US instigating the war, heavy support (including intelligence sharing anyone with half a clue knew was going on) still does not constitute a proxy war. Like many narratives, "proxy war" falls apart under scrutiny. But it does sound edgy and contrarian if you don't examine it too closely. I do agree that there are some terrible realpolitik incentives here. The US isn't doing this solely for freedom and democracy, just like it wasn't in Iraq, regardless of the advertising for both. But that doesn't mean that Ukraine itself cannot be benefiting. Based on experiences of people who fled the previous Russian ("Soviet") empire, I can certainly see why they would choose this despite the cost. > seek peace over escalation This is the complete wrong framing for the defensive side of a war. Deescalating defense means that Russia will escalate attacks. I too had been lured by the hope that military might was becoming less relevant. But now Russia's actions have demonstrated that the peace we had (and still have, for the most part) is a product of military might.
- lowkey 3y ago
  The first casualty in war is the truth - and this applies to both sides. I don't expect to convince you that you may have been mislead about the origins of this war, but I will nonetheless try. The war didn't start in 2019, or even 2014, but in 2014 the US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland, was recorded plotting the overthrow of the democratically elected leadership of Ukraine and deciding who would replace him as was reported by the BBC, Reuters, Washington Post, NPR and NBC. [0][1][2][3] Before you respond with a counter-claim that Russia did something bad first thus justifiying the coup, I will concede that they may very well have done so, but this only proves my point that this is nothing more than an ongoing proxy war between these super-powers that has now gone from covert to kinetic. I fail to see how anyone can claim this is anything but a proxy war. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-audio-reveals-embarrassing-u-s-exchange-on-ukraine-eu-idUKBREA151VA20140207 https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-a... https://archive.is/EMGcA https://archive.is/EMGcA [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/in-purported-recording-of-us-diplomat-blunt-talk-on-ukraine/2014/02/06/518240a4-8f4b-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/in-pu... https://archive.is/WFmZJ https://archive.is/WFmZJ [3] https://www.nbcnews.com/video/audio-of-leaked-nuland-conversation-162208835907 https://www.nbcnews.com/video/audio-of-leaked-nuland-convers...
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > I fail to see how anyone can claim this is anything but a proxy war. Russia themselves talks about unifying Russia and how "1991" was a tragedy (1991 being when Ukraine got its independence) in their victory article that they mistakenly posted shortly after the war started. They don't mention a coup, or NATO or anything else. But don't take my word for it, take theres. https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20... >> Russia is restoring its unity - the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe of our history, its unnatural dislocation, have been overcome. Yes, at a high price, yes, through the tragic events of the virtual civil war, because now brothers separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies are still shooting at each other - but Ukraine will no longer be anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness by gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together - in its entirety of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had abandoned this, allowed temporary division to gain a foothold for centuries, we would not only betray the memory of our ancestors, but would also be cursed by our descendants - for allowing the collapse of the Russian land.
lisasays 3y ago
The young men of Ukraine are being killed at a rate of 7-1 vs Russia, with nothing to show for it but 300k dead Ukrainian young men. You have this information from where, exactly?
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  His source is literally a Russian propaganda photoshop of a legitimate leak. You can see both versions at the following link. https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1644226867623280641 https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1644226867623280641 He claims its been wiped from the net but thats not anywhere near true, it very much exists and is very obviously photoshop.
  - lisasays 3y ago
    Thanks - it pretty much had to be something like that.
lowkey 3y ago
Responding to the sister comment by user lisasays "The young men of Ukraine are being killed at a rate of 7-1 vs Russia, with nothing to show for it but 300k dead Ukrainian young men." "You have this information from where, exactly?" The 7 to 1 casualty rate came from the classified US military documents that were leaked in April 2023 [1] These documents were leaked to a Discord channel and have now been scrubbed from the internet. The 300k casualty estimate was attributed to Scott Ritter, a former United Nations Special Commission weapons inspector for the US [1] It should come as no surprise that these statistics are not being widely shared in the media but rather they have gone to great lengths to suppress this information. If more people knew what a meat-grinder this war is for Ukrainian solders, it might lead many to conclude that continuing to escalate the conflict is a misguided idea. [0] https://apnews.com/article/leaked-documents-classified-russia-ukraine-e351c6613e69bf8d714b03e367543da8 https://apnews.com/article/leaked-documents-classified-russi... [1] https://tass.com/world/1601683 https://tass.com/world/1601683
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > The 7 to 1 casualty rate came from the classified US military documents that were leaked in April 2023 [1] These documents were leaked to a Discord channel and have now been scrubbed from the internet. You are unfortunately quoting a fake numbered that originated from a poorly photoshopped version of the legitimate documents. The real numbers are as follows. Russia 35.4k - 43.5k KIA Ukraine 16.0k - 17.5k KIA https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1644226867623280641 https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1644226867623280641 > The 300k casualty estimate was attributed to Scott Ritter, a former United Nations Special Commission weapons inspector for the US [1] Scott Ritter is also a twice convicted pedophile and a pro Russian propagandist. > [1] https://tass.com/world/1601683 https://tass.com/world/1601683 A yes it makes sense now your source is literally just Russian Propaganda.
  - lowkey 3y ago
    As I've said repeatedly, the first casualty of war is the truth - applies to both sides. "You are unfortunately quoting a fake numbered that originated from a poorly photoshopped version of the legitimate documents." I have no doubt that spokespeople from the US may have made this unsubstantiated claim, but unless they share the legitimate documents publicly how can we confirm they are telling the truth? If the truth were as they claim, it would add significantly to their credibility to share this with the media. However, the fact that none of the media who did see the leaks ever shared the details of those leaks, and actively dissuaded anyone from looking for themselves, lends me to believe there were inconvenient facts in those leaks that the US did not want to be shared with the public. "Scott Ritter is also a twice convicted pedophile and a pro Russian propagandist." I don't know if the claim that he is a twice convicted pedophile is true or not - but I'll tell you about another convicted pedophile who definitely didn't kill himself. His name was Jeffrey Epstein and he was also convicted of trafficking underage girls to a bunch of anonymous rich dudes who have never been charged, but I'm sure they will be any day now because our legal system is honest and true and they would never lie to you "A yes it makes sense now your source is literally just Russian Propaganda." In war it's all propaganda, on both sides. Just for the record, the US is better at propaganda than the Russians. We have Hollywood which convinced us all that the CIA never does wrong, never spies on Americans (except that Snowden thing) and never overthrows democratically elected leaders (only dictators like Saddam Hussein - who we funded and armed to fight Iran, whose democratically elected government we also overthrew. See also, most of Latin America)
DropInIn 3y ago
> This war was never about saving Ukraine. It is and has always been a proxy war between two super-powers Well that's a blatant False Dichotomy It's not one or the other, it can be, and in fact almost certainly is, Both.

by lowkey 3y ago

mindslight 3y ago

The definition of "proxy war" hinges upon being instigated by another party. Every narrative I've seen about Russia being some reluctant participant is full of holes or based on innuendo. If missiles were the problem, then why not attack those military assets and leave it at that? Having lost so much influence with your neighbor that they're cozying up to another sphere of influence to protect themselves still doesn't create a justification to conquer them, regardless of whether you call yourself a super/great power or not. Without the US instigating the war, heavy support (including intelligence sharing anyone with half a clue knew was going on) still does not constitute a proxy war. Like many narratives, "proxy war" falls apart under scrutiny. But it does sound edgy and contrarian if you don't examine it too closely. I do agree that there are some terrible realpolitik incentives here. The US isn't doing this solely for freedom and democracy, just like it wasn't in Iraq, regardless of the advertising for both. But that doesn't mean that Ukraine itself cannot be benefiting. Based on experiences of people who fled the previous Russian ("Soviet") empire, I can certainly see why they would choose this despite the cost. > seek peace over escalation This is the complete wrong framing for the defensive side of a war. Deescalating defense means that Russia will escalate attacks. I too had been lured by the hope that military might was becoming less relevant. But now Russia's actions have demonstrated that the peace we had (and still have, for the most part) is a product of military might.

lowkey 3y ago
The first casualty in war is the truth - and this applies to both sides. I don't expect to convince you that you may have been mislead about the origins of this war, but I will nonetheless try. The war didn't start in 2019, or even 2014, but in 2014 the US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland, was recorded plotting the overthrow of the democratically elected leadership of Ukraine and deciding who would replace him as was reported by the BBC, Reuters, Washington Post, NPR and NBC. [0][1][2][3] Before you respond with a counter-claim that Russia did something bad first thus justifiying the coup, I will concede that they may very well have done so, but this only proves my point that this is nothing more than an ongoing proxy war between these super-powers that has now gone from covert to kinetic. I fail to see how anyone can claim this is anything but a proxy war. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-audio-reveals-embarrassing-u-s-exchange-on-ukraine-eu-idUKBREA151VA20140207 https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-a... https://archive.is/EMGcA https://archive.is/EMGcA [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/in-purported-recording-of-us-diplomat-blunt-talk-on-ukraine/2014/02/06/518240a4-8f4b-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/in-pu... https://archive.is/WFmZJ https://archive.is/WFmZJ [3] https://www.nbcnews.com/video/audio-of-leaked-nuland-conversation-162208835907 https://www.nbcnews.com/video/audio-of-leaked-nuland-convers...
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > I fail to see how anyone can claim this is anything but a proxy war. Russia themselves talks about unifying Russia and how "1991" was a tragedy (1991 being when Ukraine got its independence) in their victory article that they mistakenly posted shortly after the war started. They don't mention a coup, or NATO or anything else. But don't take my word for it, take theres. https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20... >> Russia is restoring its unity - the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe of our history, its unnatural dislocation, have been overcome. Yes, at a high price, yes, through the tragic events of the virtual civil war, because now brothers separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies are still shooting at each other - but Ukraine will no longer be anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness by gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together - in its entirety of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had abandoned this, allowed temporary division to gain a foothold for centuries, we would not only betray the memory of our ancestors, but would also be cursed by our descendants - for allowing the collapse of the Russian land.

lisasays 3y ago

The young men of Ukraine are being killed at a rate of 7-1 vs Russia, with nothing to show for it but 300k dead Ukrainian young men. You have this information from where, exactly?

_kbh_ 3y ago
His source is literally a Russian propaganda photoshop of a legitimate leak. You can see both versions at the following link. https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1644226867623280641 https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1644226867623280641 He claims its been wiped from the net but thats not anywhere near true, it very much exists and is very obviously photoshop.
- lisasays 3y ago
  Thanks - it pretty much had to be something like that.

lowkey 3y ago

Responding to the sister comment by user lisasays "The young men of Ukraine are being killed at a rate of 7-1 vs Russia, with nothing to show for it but 300k dead Ukrainian young men." "You have this information from where, exactly?" The 7 to 1 casualty rate came from the classified US military documents that were leaked in April 2023 [1] These documents were leaked to a Discord channel and have now been scrubbed from the internet. The 300k casualty estimate was attributed to Scott Ritter, a former United Nations Special Commission weapons inspector for the US [1] It should come as no surprise that these statistics are not being widely shared in the media but rather they have gone to great lengths to suppress this information. If more people knew what a meat-grinder this war is for Ukrainian solders, it might lead many to conclude that continuing to escalate the conflict is a misguided idea. [0] https://apnews.com/article/leaked-documents-classified-russia-ukraine-e351c6613e69bf8d714b03e367543da8 https://apnews.com/article/leaked-documents-classified-russi... [1] https://tass.com/world/1601683 https://tass.com/world/1601683

_kbh_ 3y ago
> The 7 to 1 casualty rate came from the classified US military documents that were leaked in April 2023 [1] These documents were leaked to a Discord channel and have now been scrubbed from the internet. You are unfortunately quoting a fake numbered that originated from a poorly photoshopped version of the legitimate documents. The real numbers are as follows. Russia 35.4k - 43.5k KIA Ukraine 16.0k - 17.5k KIA https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1644226867623280641 https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1644226867623280641 > The 300k casualty estimate was attributed to Scott Ritter, a former United Nations Special Commission weapons inspector for the US [1] Scott Ritter is also a twice convicted pedophile and a pro Russian propagandist. > [1] https://tass.com/world/1601683 https://tass.com/world/1601683 A yes it makes sense now your source is literally just Russian Propaganda.
- lowkey 3y ago
  As I've said repeatedly, the first casualty of war is the truth - applies to both sides. "You are unfortunately quoting a fake numbered that originated from a poorly photoshopped version of the legitimate documents." I have no doubt that spokespeople from the US may have made this unsubstantiated claim, but unless they share the legitimate documents publicly how can we confirm they are telling the truth? If the truth were as they claim, it would add significantly to their credibility to share this with the media. However, the fact that none of the media who did see the leaks ever shared the details of those leaks, and actively dissuaded anyone from looking for themselves, lends me to believe there were inconvenient facts in those leaks that the US did not want to be shared with the public. "Scott Ritter is also a twice convicted pedophile and a pro Russian propagandist." I don't know if the claim that he is a twice convicted pedophile is true or not - but I'll tell you about another convicted pedophile who definitely didn't kill himself. His name was Jeffrey Epstein and he was also convicted of trafficking underage girls to a bunch of anonymous rich dudes who have never been charged, but I'm sure they will be any day now because our legal system is honest and true and they would never lie to you "A yes it makes sense now your source is literally just Russian Propaganda." In war it's all propaganda, on both sides. Just for the record, the US is better at propaganda than the Russians. We have Hollywood which convinced us all that the CIA never does wrong, never spies on Americans (except that Snowden thing) and never overthrows democratically elected leaders (only dictators like Saddam Hussein - who we funded and armed to fight Iran, whose democratically elected government we also overthrew. See also, most of Latin America)

DropInIn 3y ago

> This war was never about saving Ukraine. It is and has always been a proxy war between two super-powers Well that's a blatant False Dichotomy It's not one or the other, it can be, and in fact almost certainly is, Both.