8 ms·

Canada Woos American H-1B Visa Holders Fed Up with U.S. Immigration System

39 points by advpetc 3y ago

archo 3y ago
https://archive.is/RiD5H https://archive.is/RiD5H
atonse 3y ago
Wonder how many people are thinking “maybe I’ll go to Canada, spend a few years, get citizenship there, then come back to America as a Canadian with much better prospects”?
- ryanseys 3y ago
  As a Canadian, currently stuck in the US immigration process, I chuckle at this remark. Also I-485's i.e. Green Cards, Permanent Residence status, in the US are based on where you are BORN not which citizenship(s) you have.
  - howinteresting 3y ago
    Yes but the goal is not to move to the US permanently, it is to make a ton of money here and then retire in Canada.
    - Wagthesam 3y ago
      that used to be desirable. But the canadian health care system has degraded, and cost of living is now super high with the housing boom I say this as a canadian based in sf
    - gloryjulio 3y ago
      If u have a ton money, it's cheaper to just live in US. Canada is very expensive for the plebs. The cost of living keeps rising and the politicians are very anti small businesses and pro oligarchy. They have a strangle hold on the country simliar to the Murdoch in Australia. Ironically, US is fairer in helping the small timers.
      - flangola7 3y ago
        > If u have a ton money, it's cheaper to just live in US. Not if you have a chronic illness and have doctor appointments most weeks.
        gloryjulio 3y ago
        It was the saving grace, but I am not sure if that's the case now as the situation deteriorates. If I am already having the big tech insurance and I am gonna to fly to Mexico/India for some of the items anyway, why do I need it? The politicians simply DO NOT care. They just let oligarchs keep eating the small palayers, and it will totally break the health system some day just like how they killed 3rd party internet providers. Telus is already making the play in the health sector.
        midoridensha 3y ago
        Basically, if you have valuable tech skills and are young and healthy, the US is a great place to make a lot of money. Otherwise, not so much.
    - ryanseys 3y ago
      As an H-1B holder, we are legally entitled (and required) to work for one specific employer and that's it. You cannot even think of starting a company, you cannot work a gig job, you can't work two "high-paying" tech jobs. Everyone knows the "ton of money" doesn't come from working a salaried job, it's from creating something new / starting a company. But only US green card holders or US citizens can even dream of considering that as an option they can pursue.
      - jebarker 3y ago
        Ton of money is ill-defined, but it's quite possible to work a salaried job in tech in the US and achieve financial independence and an extremely high standard of living.
      - renewiltord 3y ago
        You can found on a H-1B. My friend has.
  - pkaye 3y ago
    The TN visa maybe enough for them once they become Canadian citizens.
- howinteresting 3y ago
  I'd estimate that most people in the tech pipeline intend that. TN status is a lot easier to get and tech salaries are much higher in America.
  - BrainInAJar 3y ago
    TN visas are not for software engineers, they are for software analysts, or actual engineers. And they are not dual intent (you can't convert them to a green card).
    - RavlaAlvar 3y ago
      1. The are plethora of examples online people holding TN work as a SDE with a CS degree 2. I believe you can file to change intent 90 days after entry
    - howinteresting 3y ago
      Job titles are at some level made up.
      - BrainInAJar 3y ago
        Try using that argument with a xenophobic highschool dropout immigration official...
        hollerith 3y ago
        Are there any highschool-dropout immigration officials in the US? I kind of doubt it.
- the_svd_doctor 3y ago
  TN is useful, but not _that_ useful if you eventually want to get a Green card. And GC quotas are based on place of birth.
  - dilyevsky 3y ago
    Biggest advantage of TN is there is no annual quota which is by far the largest obstacle for most folks trying to even get in the country. Once you're in getting a transfer or obtaining eb2 is much easier bc you're going to have income to support it.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  A couple of my cousins did this and this was also my parent's backup plan in case we didn't get a GC. It's a big reason a lot of Indian national SWEs on H-1Bs end up in Canada.
Racing0461 3y ago
After seeing what canada's immigration system did to their white color jobs' salaries and home ownership, they can have them.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
jbarham 3y ago
Ironically the #2 post on /r/canada right now is titled "'I'm done with Canada': High cost of living leads some to leave the country" (https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/1538vpj/im_done_with_canada_high_cost_of_living_leads/ https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/1538vpj/im_done_wit...)
- nubinetwork 3y ago
  I'm done with the cost of living and I was born here.
- renewiltord 3y ago
  What a fascinating thread. Here's an interesting sentence from a comment there: > This is a cultural problem because majority of the immigrants are from India and they focus on education too much. We need to get people in to trades and creating new job opportunities in energy and lumber our natural resources or infrastructure.
TillE 3y ago
I can't imagine that America's byzantine visa system is accomplishing any useful policy goal, it's just a mess. Compare to a country like Germany, where you can get a work visa, extend it indefinitely, and then roll it over into permanent residency after five years. No bullshit, no lotteries, you just meet the legal requirements and your applications are accepted in a matter of weeks.
- OO000oo 3y ago
  > I can't imagine that America's byzantine visa system is accomplishing any useful policy goal I am positive it is. It works like most things in the US. The ruling class profits tremendously from the exploitation it enables, and American citizens are much too propagandized and alienated from politics to do anything about it.
  - more_corn 3y ago
    The sad fact is that the ruling class could profit much more by opening up visas for skilled workers. You only hire workers and pay them because they make you more money than they cost. Business literally doesn’t work if that’s not true. Every visa you deny a skilled worker is lowered economic activity. Our visa policies directly hinder economic growth. And in the most absurd ways imaginable. H1B is tied to an employer. If your startup goes under you’re out. If you get laid off you’re out. I’d you want to switch jobs lawyers have to get involved. It’s a lottery once a year so tons of skilled workers sit on their hands waiting. Then most don’t get in because… lottery. I literally couldn’t invent a more useless and stupid visa system if I tried.
    - OO000oo 3y ago
      That is very naive. What employers want more of is workers that can be exploited for more labor at lower cost, and no workers are more exploitable than those under threat of deportation if they lose their job. https://www.politico.com/newsletters/morning-money/2022/05/31/true-unemployment-is-a-lot-higher-than-you-think-00035922 https://www.politico.com/newsletters/morning-money/2022/05/3...
- deleted 3y ago
sharts 3y ago
Immigration aside, why don't these countries ever invest in their own citizens to level up?
- OO000oo 3y ago
  [flagged]
- doytch 3y ago
  Canada’s dealt with a brain drain problem to the US for a couple of decades at least. The amount of folks I know who got educated in Canada and eventually moved to the US due to CoL and salaries is significant. It’s a shame.
  - neom 3y ago
    That's how you buy a house in Canada. Get paid in America. It’s a shame.
- Kalium 3y ago
  Many of them do. Canada and India both have some excellent educational instutions. Yet there's often far more lucrative opportunities for an ambitious 20-something in the US than they can easily find in the location they may happen to already be in. Leveling up is a long, slow process of decades. Immigration offers to improve someone's life a lot faster.
- hgs3 3y ago
  In the United States there have been scholarship programs sponsored by the US government that pay for a students IT degree in exchange for government employment for X years after graduation. Obviously, government pays less than private sector, but at least you have a job and a degree. It would be lovely if private companies offered similar programs. The cynical answer as to why they don't is because it's cheaper to import workers than train them here, plus importing more workers suppresses wages (see supply and demand) and brain drains foreign competition.
kazinator 3y ago
The plan is to use origami techniques to fold the H1-B Visa into an affordable home in Canada.
- soligern 3y ago
  Or just get a slice of the entrepreneurial opportunities these immigrants bring to actually grow the economy. 55% of the unicorns in the US have atleast one immigrant founder. 66 of the top 500 unicorns in the US are founded by Indian immigrant founders. https://www.businesstoday.in/amp/entrepreneurship/news/story/55-of-american-unicorns-founded-by-immigrants-indians-top-the-chart-342858-2022-07-27 https://www.businesstoday.in/amp/entrepreneurship/news/story...
  - kazinator 3y ago
    s/economy/inequality/
rhaway84773 3y ago
So according to this article Canada has seen an increase of 500,000 foreign students. Assuming a highly conservative $20k in annual tuition fees (the cheapest decent US public college will run you at least $30k for 2 semesters in tuition alone, never mind fees, living costs, etc), that’s about $10Bn in additional annual revenue with about 4 years locked in, every year. And that’s just tuition. It doesn’t include living costs, the fact that many students might have friends and family visit, they will contribute to the academic and research programs at the university, and will graduate and almost certainly have a much higher output than what they will consume, being, almost by definition, more highly educated than the average Canadian.
zaptheimpaler 3y ago
Not sure how to feel about this. It can be a good thing if we get new business and companies in line with all the talent but without that it will just push down Canadian salaries even more. I guess it depends on if they have plans just as effective in encouraging VCs and entrepreneurs to invest more here.
thumbsup-_- 3y ago
the most frustrating thing about US immigration is that nothing changes. The American politics is deadlocked. Even though both sides agree that GC backlog is a problem, nothing happens because now in American politics only small inconsequential incremental changes are possible. Anything reformative is just not possible here anymore. This is also true for issues that impact americans like gun laws.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > only small inconsequential incremental changes are possible. Anything reformative is just not possible here anymore For a year that’s seen massive changes in abortion rights, monetary policy, deposit insurance and military posture, this is a strange conclusion to come to. The answer is the “both sides agree that GC backlog is a problem” observation is wrong.
  - thumbsup-_- 3y ago
    Well abortion rights were reformed by supreme court and not by politics.

39 points by advpetc 3y ago

https://archive.is/RiD5H https://archive.is/RiD5H

Wonder how many people are thinking “maybe I’ll go to Canada, spend a few years, get citizenship there, then come back to America as a Canadian with much better prospects”?

ryanseys 3y ago
As a Canadian, currently stuck in the US immigration process, I chuckle at this remark. Also I-485's i.e. Green Cards, Permanent Residence status, in the US are based on where you are BORN not which citizenship(s) you have.
- howinteresting 3y ago
  Yes but the goal is not to move to the US permanently, it is to make a ton of money here and then retire in Canada.
  - Wagthesam 3y ago
    that used to be desirable. But the canadian health care system has degraded, and cost of living is now super high with the housing boom I say this as a canadian based in sf
  - gloryjulio 3y ago
    If u have a ton money, it's cheaper to just live in US. Canada is very expensive for the plebs. The cost of living keeps rising and the politicians are very anti small businesses and pro oligarchy. They have a strangle hold on the country simliar to the Murdoch in Australia. Ironically, US is fairer in helping the small timers.
    - flangola7 3y ago
      > If u have a ton money, it's cheaper to just live in US. Not if you have a chronic illness and have doctor appointments most weeks.
      - gloryjulio 3y ago
        It was the saving grace, but I am not sure if that's the case now as the situation deteriorates. If I am already having the big tech insurance and I am gonna to fly to Mexico/India for some of the items anyway, why do I need it? The politicians simply DO NOT care. They just let oligarchs keep eating the small palayers, and it will totally break the health system some day just like how they killed 3rd party internet providers. Telus is already making the play in the health sector.
      - midoridensha 3y ago
        Basically, if you have valuable tech skills and are young and healthy, the US is a great place to make a lot of money. Otherwise, not so much.
  - ryanseys 3y ago
    As an H-1B holder, we are legally entitled (and required) to work for one specific employer and that's it. You cannot even think of starting a company, you cannot work a gig job, you can't work two "high-paying" tech jobs. Everyone knows the "ton of money" doesn't come from working a salaried job, it's from creating something new / starting a company. But only US green card holders or US citizens can even dream of considering that as an option they can pursue.
    - jebarker 3y ago
      Ton of money is ill-defined, but it's quite possible to work a salaried job in tech in the US and achieve financial independence and an extremely high standard of living.
    - renewiltord 3y ago
      You can found on a H-1B. My friend has.
- pkaye 3y ago
  The TN visa maybe enough for them once they become Canadian citizens.
howinteresting 3y ago
I'd estimate that most people in the tech pipeline intend that. TN status is a lot easier to get and tech salaries are much higher in America.
- BrainInAJar 3y ago
  TN visas are not for software engineers, they are for software analysts, or actual engineers. And they are not dual intent (you can't convert them to a green card).
  - RavlaAlvar 3y ago
    1. The are plethora of examples online people holding TN work as a SDE with a CS degree 2. I believe you can file to change intent 90 days after entry
  - howinteresting 3y ago
    Job titles are at some level made up.
    - BrainInAJar 3y ago
      Try using that argument with a xenophobic highschool dropout immigration official...
      - hollerith 3y ago
        Are there any highschool-dropout immigration officials in the US? I kind of doubt it.
the_svd_doctor 3y ago
TN is useful, but not _that_ useful if you eventually want to get a Green card. And GC quotas are based on place of birth.
- dilyevsky 3y ago
  Biggest advantage of TN is there is no annual quota which is by far the largest obstacle for most folks trying to even get in the country. Once you're in getting a transfer or obtaining eb2 is much easier bc you're going to have income to support it.
alephnerd 3y ago
A couple of my cousins did this and this was also my parent's backup plan in case we didn't get a GC. It's a big reason a lot of Indian national SWEs on H-1Bs end up in Canada.

Racing0461 3y ago

After seeing what canada's immigration system did to their white color jobs' salaries and home ownership, they can have them.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

jbarham 3y ago

Ironically the #2 post on /r/canada right now is titled "'I'm done with Canada': High cost of living leads some to leave the country" (https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/1538vpj/im_done_with_canada_high_cost_of_living_leads/ https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/1538vpj/im_done_wit...)

nubinetwork 3y ago
I'm done with the cost of living and I was born here.
renewiltord 3y ago
What a fascinating thread. Here's an interesting sentence from a comment there: > This is a cultural problem because majority of the immigrants are from India and they focus on education too much. We need to get people in to trades and creating new job opportunities in energy and lumber our natural resources or infrastructure.

TillE 3y ago

I can't imagine that America's byzantine visa system is accomplishing any useful policy goal, it's just a mess. Compare to a country like Germany, where you can get a work visa, extend it indefinitely, and then roll it over into permanent residency after five years. No bullshit, no lotteries, you just meet the legal requirements and your applications are accepted in a matter of weeks.

OO000oo 3y ago
> I can't imagine that America's byzantine visa system is accomplishing any useful policy goal I am positive it is. It works like most things in the US. The ruling class profits tremendously from the exploitation it enables, and American citizens are much too propagandized and alienated from politics to do anything about it.
- more_corn 3y ago
  The sad fact is that the ruling class could profit much more by opening up visas for skilled workers. You only hire workers and pay them because they make you more money than they cost. Business literally doesn’t work if that’s not true. Every visa you deny a skilled worker is lowered economic activity. Our visa policies directly hinder economic growth. And in the most absurd ways imaginable. H1B is tied to an employer. If your startup goes under you’re out. If you get laid off you’re out. I’d you want to switch jobs lawyers have to get involved. It’s a lottery once a year so tons of skilled workers sit on their hands waiting. Then most don’t get in because… lottery. I literally couldn’t invent a more useless and stupid visa system if I tried.
  - OO000oo 3y ago
    That is very naive. What employers want more of is workers that can be exploited for more labor at lower cost, and no workers are more exploitable than those under threat of deportation if they lose their job. https://www.politico.com/newsletters/morning-money/2022/05/31/true-unemployment-is-a-lot-higher-than-you-think-00035922 https://www.politico.com/newsletters/morning-money/2022/05/3...
deleted 3y ago

sharts 3y ago

Immigration aside, why don't these countries ever invest in their own citizens to level up?

OO000oo 3y ago
[flagged]
doytch 3y ago
Canada’s dealt with a brain drain problem to the US for a couple of decades at least. The amount of folks I know who got educated in Canada and eventually moved to the US due to CoL and salaries is significant. It’s a shame.
- neom 3y ago
  That's how you buy a house in Canada. Get paid in America. It’s a shame.
Kalium 3y ago
Many of them do. Canada and India both have some excellent educational instutions. Yet there's often far more lucrative opportunities for an ambitious 20-something in the US than they can easily find in the location they may happen to already be in. Leveling up is a long, slow process of decades. Immigration offers to improve someone's life a lot faster.
hgs3 3y ago
In the United States there have been scholarship programs sponsored by the US government that pay for a students IT degree in exchange for government employment for X years after graduation. Obviously, government pays less than private sector, but at least you have a job and a degree. It would be lovely if private companies offered similar programs. The cynical answer as to why they don't is because it's cheaper to import workers than train them here, plus importing more workers suppresses wages (see supply and demand) and brain drains foreign competition.

kazinator 3y ago

The plan is to use origami techniques to fold the H1-B Visa into an affordable home in Canada.

soligern 3y ago
Or just get a slice of the entrepreneurial opportunities these immigrants bring to actually grow the economy. 55% of the unicorns in the US have atleast one immigrant founder. 66 of the top 500 unicorns in the US are founded by Indian immigrant founders. https://www.businesstoday.in/amp/entrepreneurship/news/story/55-of-american-unicorns-founded-by-immigrants-indians-top-the-chart-342858-2022-07-27 https://www.businesstoday.in/amp/entrepreneurship/news/story...
- kazinator 3y ago
  s/economy/inequality/

rhaway84773 3y ago

So according to this article Canada has seen an increase of 500,000 foreign students. Assuming a highly conservative $20k in annual tuition fees (the cheapest decent US public college will run you at least $30k for 2 semesters in tuition alone, never mind fees, living costs, etc), that’s about $10Bn in additional annual revenue with about 4 years locked in, every year. And that’s just tuition. It doesn’t include living costs, the fact that many students might have friends and family visit, they will contribute to the academic and research programs at the university, and will graduate and almost certainly have a much higher output than what they will consume, being, almost by definition, more highly educated than the average Canadian.

zaptheimpaler 3y ago

Not sure how to feel about this. It can be a good thing if we get new business and companies in line with all the talent but without that it will just push down Canadian salaries even more. I guess it depends on if they have plans just as effective in encouraging VCs and entrepreneurs to invest more here.

thumbsup-_- 3y ago

the most frustrating thing about US immigration is that nothing changes. The American politics is deadlocked. Even though both sides agree that GC backlog is a problem, nothing happens because now in American politics only small inconsequential incremental changes are possible. Anything reformative is just not possible here anymore. This is also true for issues that impact americans like gun laws.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> only small inconsequential incremental changes are possible. Anything reformative is just not possible here anymore For a year that’s seen massive changes in abortion rights, monetary policy, deposit insurance and military posture, this is a strange conclusion to come to. The answer is the “both sides agree that GC backlog is a problem” observation is wrong.
- thumbsup-_- 3y ago
  Well abortion rights were reformed by supreme court and not by politics.