4 ms·

The impact of this, I think is that the LLM is right, hippos do swim, because that's how people commonly describe what hippos do, such that it gets into the tra

by 8note 3y ago

The impact of this, I think is that the LLM is right, hippos do swim, because that's how people commonly describe what hippos do, such that it gets into the training set

TaylorAlexander 3y ago
I don't think so. I think what is happening is that most people are not familiar with hippos because probably somewhere between zero and one people in this thread have ever seen them in their natural habitat. The average person might think hippos swim because they do not understand that hippos do not float. If you were to put a hippo in a very deep pool they would simply drown, because they cannot float nor swim. I think if you clarified this, most people would not continue to assert that they are swimming. Specifically I found these citations very helpful: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36777376 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36777376 So I think what we can say is that the average person would be wrong about hippos, because the hippo is not actually swimming but people do not realize that. We expect LLMs to behave more like an expert, so the standard is even higher and we should be more willing to say it is wrong. Although the meaning of a word is defined by its usage, there are also common misconceptions that people have. It is not the case that every usage of a word is correct. Instead you would have to ask a variety of people what swimming is, and then describe to them what a hippo does (it does not float, it walks on the river bed), and then consider whether that fits with their conception of swimming. I think what is happening here is that lots of people thought hippos swim, they have been corrected, and now they are feeling a bit defensive and trying to save face rather than say "huh that is interesting I did not know that hippos don't swim".
- frumper 3y ago
  You just said definitions and usage don’t line up, and usage is what it means. Now you’re saying how people use it is wrong because it’s not what it means. Can you see how that is confusing?
  - TaylorAlexander 3y ago
    Sure, human language is pretty confusing! Or rather it is nuanced. Dictionary definitions try to track the way language is used in common parlance, rather than the meaning of words tracking dictionary definitions. At the same time, not all people use all words correctly. For example, the words "affect" and "effect" are commonly confused, but misuse of those words is simply considered incorrect, not a drift in the meaning of the words. Then there are words like "nice" or "cute" [1] whose meanings drifted over time. So the confusion you point out comes from this distinction, which I have not explained because I think that's probably the kind of thing for a language scholar, where some different usages of words are simply incorrect, whereas others represent the natural drifting of language over time. The truth is I do not know how to explain why this happens, but I am aware of these distinctions. [1] https://theculturetrip.com/europe/articles/10-english-words-that-have-completely-changed-meaning/ https://theculturetrip.com/europe/articles/10-english-words-...
waynesonfire 3y ago
That's just stupid talk. It either swims or it doesnt. A drowning hippo isn't going to wish itself to float.
- sebzim4500 3y ago
  >It either swims or it doesnt Correct, it swims. >A drowning hippo isn't going to wish itself to float. A drowning hippo probably wishes it can float, much like a drowning person wishes they can float.
  - TaylorAlexander 3y ago
    Well, people can float. Also people can swim, so even if they were super muscular and lean and this made them incapable of floating (I don’t know if that happens), they could swim if they knew how. It sounds like hippos in deep water are incapable of swimming to the top. Based on what I am reading in this thread, they would simply sink. Humans, properly instructed, can avoid this by swimming.
    - trolan 3y ago
      A properly instructed hippo would stay out of the deep end

by 8note 3y ago

The impact of this, I think is that the LLM is right, hippos do swim, because that's how people commonly describe what hippos do, such that it gets into the training set

TaylorAlexander 3y ago

I don't think so. I think what is happening is that most people are not familiar with hippos because probably somewhere between zero and one people in this thread have ever seen them in their natural habitat. The average person might think hippos swim because they do not understand that hippos do not float. If you were to put a hippo in a very deep pool they would simply drown, because they cannot float nor swim. I think if you clarified this, most people would not continue to assert that they are swimming. Specifically I found these citations very helpful: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36777376 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36777376 So I think what we can say is that the average person would be wrong about hippos, because the hippo is not actually swimming but people do not realize that. We expect LLMs to behave more like an expert, so the standard is even higher and we should be more willing to say it is wrong. Although the meaning of a word is defined by its usage, there are also common misconceptions that people have. It is not the case that every usage of a word is correct. Instead you would have to ask a variety of people what swimming is, and then describe to them what a hippo does (it does not float, it walks on the river bed), and then consider whether that fits with their conception of swimming. I think what is happening here is that lots of people thought hippos swim, they have been corrected, and now they are feeling a bit defensive and trying to save face rather than say "huh that is interesting I did not know that hippos don't swim".

frumper 3y ago
You just said definitions and usage don’t line up, and usage is what it means. Now you’re saying how people use it is wrong because it’s not what it means. Can you see how that is confusing?
- TaylorAlexander 3y ago
  Sure, human language is pretty confusing! Or rather it is nuanced. Dictionary definitions try to track the way language is used in common parlance, rather than the meaning of words tracking dictionary definitions. At the same time, not all people use all words correctly. For example, the words "affect" and "effect" are commonly confused, but misuse of those words is simply considered incorrect, not a drift in the meaning of the words. Then there are words like "nice" or "cute" [1] whose meanings drifted over time. So the confusion you point out comes from this distinction, which I have not explained because I think that's probably the kind of thing for a language scholar, where some different usages of words are simply incorrect, whereas others represent the natural drifting of language over time. The truth is I do not know how to explain why this happens, but I am aware of these distinctions. [1] https://theculturetrip.com/europe/articles/10-english-words-that-have-completely-changed-meaning/ https://theculturetrip.com/europe/articles/10-english-words-...

waynesonfire 3y ago

That's just stupid talk. It either swims or it doesnt. A drowning hippo isn't going to wish itself to float.

sebzim4500 3y ago
>It either swims or it doesnt Correct, it swims. >A drowning hippo isn't going to wish itself to float. A drowning hippo probably wishes it can float, much like a drowning person wishes they can float.
- TaylorAlexander 3y ago
  Well, people can float. Also people can swim, so even if they were super muscular and lean and this made them incapable of floating (I don’t know if that happens), they could swim if they knew how. It sounds like hippos in deep water are incapable of swimming to the top. Based on what I am reading in this thread, they would simply sink. Humans, properly instructed, can avoid this by swimming.
  - trolan 3y ago
    A properly instructed hippo would stay out of the deep end