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Disclaimer: European. Is it not strange how in an article arguing from otherwise a very egalitarian, leftist viewpoint, when it discusses how students perform

Disclaimer: European. Is it not strange how in an article arguing from otherwise a very egalitarian, leftist viewpoint, when it discusses how students perform given more or less difficult classes, it somehow thinks the most relevant statistic is the race of the students? (Approximately, even, because American race designation is kinda weird anyway.) Sure, socio-economic circumstances are correlated with race. (Unfortunately still in this day and age.) Not perfectly, but there is a correlation, so absent other data, it can be used as a proxy for the socio-economic circumstances in which the student grows up. But there are multiple problems with this: 1. If we are to lessen discrimination, the very first thing we should do is stop discriminating. Is this considered normal in the USA? Stop tracking race! And even if you do track it (or an approximation of it) to double-check you're not inadvertently disadvantaging certain minority groups, certainly (1.) there are better measures to designate minority groups, and (2.) one can do this without telling all the world about it and giving society even more fuel for discrimination. If people see other people treat people equally, and see that as normal, they will tend to do the same. We should lead by example, not start a discussion on equality with the worst kind of discrimination. 2. Surely there are better indicators for socio-economic circumstances than race? What about the salary of their parents? This is a typical measure in The Netherlands (where I live). Or even where they live. And if you say that we cannot track those things because that would be an infringement on privacy: how on Earth is tracking parents' salary an infringement on privacy but not tracking race? Like, I agree that teaching less math is bollocks. But that's not the thing that surprises me most when reading OP.

Dig1t 3y ago
You are totally correct. It's cultural though, we (the people in the US) are obsessed with race. Literally everything you do and talk about is colored by it, and it's pretty much impossible to escape. The more heterogeneous the society becomes the more obsessed we become with the differences between us. You're seeing it too in the UK and will be seeing a LOT more of it as your demographics shift to be like ours.
snowwrestler 3y ago
You don’t have the historical or cultural context to be commenting on race relations and policy in the U.S. Sorry; it’s not personal. Few Europeans do unless they have lived here for a long time (and even then I see many struggle with the topics).
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Conversely, many European countries have a history that includes slavery and an arguably better track record of successful abolition and reconciliation. Maybe there's something the US can learn.
  - TheCoelacanth 3y ago
    European countries' history with slavery largely consists of having it in far off colonies and then cutting those colonies loose. The US doesn't have the luxury of making a clean break.
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      Im not saying there aren't differences, there certainly are. Do you think that the US has been doing such a good job managing race relations that we can take a superior attitude and reject commentary?
      - TheCoelacanth 3y ago
        No, but we can certainly reject completely uninformed commentary.
- cvalka 3y ago
  The thing is that most Americans don't have the historical context to be commenting on race relations and policy in the US.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
zem 3y ago
you're missing the fact that here in the US race is an extremely large factor in how students succeed, partly from correlation with socioeconomic and cultural factors, but also because it determines what sort of treatment kids get in school, from the teachers and from the administration. anecdotally, I have a friend who, when she was looking for a school for her kid, had to drill down into the data for which schools had significantly worse results for black students, because that spoke to systemic factors in the school environment, and so even if the school looked good in its overall statistics she knew her kid would not likely get a good education there.
- tomsmeding 3y ago
  This is actually a good point; I had not considered that the equality that people are trying to achieve here is equality between races. And if that's what you're interested in, surely that's what you need to track. I'm sorry for your friend; that situation sounds like a very odd mix of empowering (having the data — albeit after drilling) and deeply discriminatory and marginalising. Over here we do actually have at least some of the race inequality problems, but we're putting much less emphasis on them. The approach has advantages but clearly also disadvantages. Thanks for the thought-food.
s1artibartfast 3y ago
The USA is currently obsessed with race, and this influences all discussions. I agree that this topic could be more accurately and inclusively framed as how to improve outcomes for low income students, or children with absentee/incarcerated parents, or children of addicts. Unfortunately, some people care much more about racial outcomes than they do about any of those I mentioned. The point of the racial framing IS to polarize, divide, and mobilize a political base, not to solve an underlying problem. Talking about helping poor children doesn't get people as riled up, and has the risk of actually leading to agreement and a solution. American politics has no hindsight and is a zero sum game. If you fix a problem in American politics, you don't get credit for it later. You only get credit for promising to fix problems in the future. If parties agree and implement a solution, neither party comes out ahead, and even worse, you just made the opposition look more reasonable. It is a prisoners dilemma where cooperation is punished
- cmh89 3y ago
  >The USA is currently obsessed with race, and this influences all discussions. The United States has always been obsessed with race. The south had completely different schools based on a child's skin color. What makes you think this is new?
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    I totally agree that racial issues have always been a topic in American politics. from the colonial period, to secession from Brittan, to the failed secession of the south, to the civil rights movements, to now. That said, the relative importance of the issue and satisfaction obviously shifts over time. Gallop polling shows that that by many metrics, perceptions of racial Injustice are at a multi-decade high. It is interesting that far fewer people feel that black people are treated fairly than in the late 90's. It would be interesting to see data going back even further. https://news.gallup.com/poll/352544/larger-majority-says-racism-against-black-people-widespread.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/352544/larger-majority-says-rac...
    - cmh89 3y ago
eftychis 3y ago
Good point with a little nit. Usually in data science, you "mine" for features or combination of features. That is you collect as much as possible, then actual find the critical features e.g. to construct a random forest/decision tree/ ... Here they are going as you point out the other way. And the more I study U.S. history (and politics) the more racist I find it.
pie_flavor 3y ago
The most relevant statistic to Noah is the race of the students because the most relevant statistic to the implementors of the new math framework was the race of the students; when you see the word 'equity' being brought up in American politics, it always, always, always means addressing an observed disparity between black and white populations. Find any article about the math framework written by its proponents and you will see that race takes up the entire page. You are right that it is stupid; Noah is not saying 'I think this is important myself', he is saying 'the framework does the exact opposite of what its proponents want, down to the last detail'.

Dig1t 3y ago

You are totally correct. It's cultural though, we (the people in the US) are obsessed with race. Literally everything you do and talk about is colored by it, and it's pretty much impossible to escape. The more heterogeneous the society becomes the more obsessed we become with the differences between us. You're seeing it too in the UK and will be seeing a LOT more of it as your demographics shift to be like ours.

snowwrestler 3y ago

You don’t have the historical or cultural context to be commenting on race relations and policy in the U.S. Sorry; it’s not personal. Few Europeans do unless they have lived here for a long time (and even then I see many struggle with the topics).

s1artibartfast 3y ago
Conversely, many European countries have a history that includes slavery and an arguably better track record of successful abolition and reconciliation. Maybe there's something the US can learn.
- TheCoelacanth 3y ago
  European countries' history with slavery largely consists of having it in far off colonies and then cutting those colonies loose. The US doesn't have the luxury of making a clean break.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Im not saying there aren't differences, there certainly are. Do you think that the US has been doing such a good job managing race relations that we can take a superior attitude and reject commentary?
    - TheCoelacanth 3y ago
      No, but we can certainly reject completely uninformed commentary.
cvalka 3y ago
The thing is that most Americans don't have the historical context to be commenting on race relations and policy in the US.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

zem 3y ago

you're missing the fact that here in the US race is an extremely large factor in how students succeed, partly from correlation with socioeconomic and cultural factors, but also because it determines what sort of treatment kids get in school, from the teachers and from the administration. anecdotally, I have a friend who, when she was looking for a school for her kid, had to drill down into the data for which schools had significantly worse results for black students, because that spoke to systemic factors in the school environment, and so even if the school looked good in its overall statistics she knew her kid would not likely get a good education there.

tomsmeding 3y ago
This is actually a good point; I had not considered that the equality that people are trying to achieve here is equality between races. And if that's what you're interested in, surely that's what you need to track. I'm sorry for your friend; that situation sounds like a very odd mix of empowering (having the data — albeit after drilling) and deeply discriminatory and marginalising. Over here we do actually have at least some of the race inequality problems, but we're putting much less emphasis on them. The approach has advantages but clearly also disadvantages. Thanks for the thought-food.

s1artibartfast 3y ago

The USA is currently obsessed with race, and this influences all discussions. I agree that this topic could be more accurately and inclusively framed as how to improve outcomes for low income students, or children with absentee/incarcerated parents, or children of addicts. Unfortunately, some people care much more about racial outcomes than they do about any of those I mentioned. The point of the racial framing IS to polarize, divide, and mobilize a political base, not to solve an underlying problem. Talking about helping poor children doesn't get people as riled up, and has the risk of actually leading to agreement and a solution. American politics has no hindsight and is a zero sum game. If you fix a problem in American politics, you don't get credit for it later. You only get credit for promising to fix problems in the future. If parties agree and implement a solution, neither party comes out ahead, and even worse, you just made the opposition look more reasonable. It is a prisoners dilemma where cooperation is punished

cmh89 3y ago
>The USA is currently obsessed with race, and this influences all discussions. The United States has always been obsessed with race. The south had completely different schools based on a child's skin color. What makes you think this is new?
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  I totally agree that racial issues have always been a topic in American politics. from the colonial period, to secession from Brittan, to the failed secession of the south, to the civil rights movements, to now. That said, the relative importance of the issue and satisfaction obviously shifts over time. Gallop polling shows that that by many metrics, perceptions of racial Injustice are at a multi-decade high. It is interesting that far fewer people feel that black people are treated fairly than in the late 90's. It would be interesting to see data going back even further. https://news.gallup.com/poll/352544/larger-majority-says-racism-against-black-people-widespread.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/352544/larger-majority-says-rac...
  - cmh89 3y ago

eftychis 3y ago

Good point with a little nit. Usually in data science, you "mine" for features or combination of features. That is you collect as much as possible, then actual find the critical features e.g. to construct a random forest/decision tree/ ... Here they are going as you point out the other way. And the more I study U.S. history (and politics) the more racist I find it.

pie_flavor 3y ago

The most relevant statistic to Noah is the race of the students because the most relevant statistic to the implementors of the new math framework was the race of the students; when you see the word 'equity' being brought up in American politics, it always, always, always means addressing an observed disparity between black and white populations. Find any article about the math framework written by its proponents and you will see that race takes up the entire page. You are right that it is stupid; Noah is not saying 'I think this is important myself', he is saying 'the framework does the exact opposite of what its proponents want, down to the last detail'.