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But then engaged parents will take their kids to Kumon, and rich parents will take their kids to private school. Their kids will then mop the floor against all

But then engaged parents will take their kids to Kumon, and rich parents will take their kids to private school. Their kids will then mop the floor against all other kids, including engaged kids without engaged parents, that would have benefited from more advanced classes. Is that equality?

cauch 3y ago
That does not make any sense: without this measure, the kids that you are trying to save from moping the floor will ... mop the floor twice. Without this measure, the kids that are not able to follow classes that needs things they cannot afford will just fail the lecture and drop from school, from THE WHOLE SCHOOL. Without the measure, you have people who drop out of school and get a mathematical education close to 0 and will compete with people of mathematical education of 10. With this measure, the same people will get a mathematical education closer to 5, and will compete with people of mathematical education of 10.
- WillPostForFood 3y ago
  I think you might be misunderstanding the system. In California, you had standard track math, and advanced or accelerated track. This measure gets rids of advanced/accelerated, and forces everyone into standard. Without the measure you have 5s and 10s separated, with the measure, you have 5s and 10s together. But as the parent post points out, 10s either dominate the class, leave the class, or ignore the class and take math outside school. None of that help's the 5s, and all of it hurts, or is wasteful for the 10s.
  - cauch 3y ago
    Thank you for bringing my attention to that. Looking closer, I'm even more confused: it was never question to drop "advanced math", but to replace "advanced algebra" by "advanced data science mathematics". The program was even claiming (maybe incorrectly, but it's not the point) that they wanted to replace the boring memorization of formula by real life problems more challenging for students. So, I'm now not even sure where this "dumbing down" the students comes from. Maybe it's yet another moral panic.
    - WillPostForFood 3y ago
      It is not a moral panic, it is legitimate dumbing down of the math curriculum. You have to look further back. They are blocking middle schoolers from taking Algebra. That means they won't haven't progressed enough to get to Calculus unless they skip ahead a grade level of math, either via summer school, or other outside study.
      - cauch 3y ago
        > They are blocking middle schoolers from taking Algebra. By replacing it by another challenging mathematical content. How is that "dumbing down". It's like saying "they are making students less musical because they are replacing piano lectures with guitar lectures". And, yes, I get that Algebra is not the same as Data Science, and that Algebra may cover some foundation needed for a math specialization. But a lot of students don't end up doing a specialization in math: for them, Data Science may make them SMARTER than Algebra which give tools rather than train the brain to think differently. I had a strong math cursus at uni, and I've observed that it takes a while for the "math point of view" to "click" and suddenly make sense. It is also the case in some comments here. I have never seen someone saying they have "clicked" before uni (I'm sure there is some, the point is that they are too rare to be the reason we waste all the other students' time). The reality is that teaching 1 year of something that you need 2-3 years before "clicking" means that it is just wasted on people who just do one year. And, of course, Algebra is not limited to that. But it is also just true that a lot of it is learning formula by heart, which makes it difficult to pretend teaching a more challenging, engaging and practical math domain will make people somehow less smart.
inconceivable 3y ago
of course not, but all of this insanity is just based on feelings, not actual outcomes.

cauch 3y ago

That does not make any sense: without this measure, the kids that you are trying to save from moping the floor will ... mop the floor twice. Without this measure, the kids that are not able to follow classes that needs things they cannot afford will just fail the lecture and drop from school, from THE WHOLE SCHOOL. Without the measure, you have people who drop out of school and get a mathematical education close to 0 and will compete with people of mathematical education of 10. With this measure, the same people will get a mathematical education closer to 5, and will compete with people of mathematical education of 10.

WillPostForFood 3y ago
I think you might be misunderstanding the system. In California, you had standard track math, and advanced or accelerated track. This measure gets rids of advanced/accelerated, and forces everyone into standard. Without the measure you have 5s and 10s separated, with the measure, you have 5s and 10s together. But as the parent post points out, 10s either dominate the class, leave the class, or ignore the class and take math outside school. None of that help's the 5s, and all of it hurts, or is wasteful for the 10s.
- cauch 3y ago
  Thank you for bringing my attention to that. Looking closer, I'm even more confused: it was never question to drop "advanced math", but to replace "advanced algebra" by "advanced data science mathematics". The program was even claiming (maybe incorrectly, but it's not the point) that they wanted to replace the boring memorization of formula by real life problems more challenging for students. So, I'm now not even sure where this "dumbing down" the students comes from. Maybe it's yet another moral panic.
  - WillPostForFood 3y ago
    It is not a moral panic, it is legitimate dumbing down of the math curriculum. You have to look further back. They are blocking middle schoolers from taking Algebra. That means they won't haven't progressed enough to get to Calculus unless they skip ahead a grade level of math, either via summer school, or other outside study.
    - cauch 3y ago
      > They are blocking middle schoolers from taking Algebra. By replacing it by another challenging mathematical content. How is that "dumbing down". It's like saying "they are making students less musical because they are replacing piano lectures with guitar lectures". And, yes, I get that Algebra is not the same as Data Science, and that Algebra may cover some foundation needed for a math specialization. But a lot of students don't end up doing a specialization in math: for them, Data Science may make them SMARTER than Algebra which give tools rather than train the brain to think differently. I had a strong math cursus at uni, and I've observed that it takes a while for the "math point of view" to "click" and suddenly make sense. It is also the case in some comments here. I have never seen someone saying they have "clicked" before uni (I'm sure there is some, the point is that they are too rare to be the reason we waste all the other students' time). The reality is that teaching 1 year of something that you need 2-3 years before "clicking" means that it is just wasted on people who just do one year. And, of course, Algebra is not limited to that. But it is also just true that a lot of it is learning formula by heart, which makes it difficult to pretend teaching a more challenging, engaging and practical math domain will make people somehow less smart.

inconceivable 3y ago

of course not, but all of this insanity is just based on feelings, not actual outcomes.