4 ms·

I agree, and particularly this part > There's the theory that, by forcing the kids with the most engaged parents to go to schools with the kids of less engaged

I agree, and particularly this part > There's the theory that, by forcing the kids with the most engaged parents to go to schools with the kids of less engaged parents is really rough on the kids of engaged parents, forcing them to be responsible for "fixing" systems that they didn't create. In the UK, we used to have "grammar schools" that selected on ability based on a standardised test. They were responsible for many working- and middle class children being propelled into high positions in industry and politics, including Prime Minister. However the whole idea was deemed inequitable, so they were dismantled. Now privately school educated children have less competition.

declan_roberts 3y ago
Also being treated like a privileged enemy of the school while trying to fix it.
nsxwolf 3y ago
And if you could fix the system, it would have been fixed by now. If you have a kid today, you have 5-6 years to fix the system before it starts failing them. Your kid will be grown before any meaningful change is made, and any harms caused by the current system will be fully baked in. If you have money, you have an escape hatch right now. Vouchers make that escape hatch available to more people. Public education doesn't have to mean public schools.
- mfer 3y ago
  You need a decent school option within an acceptable travel distance. There are many who don't have a good choice like that.
  - nsxwolf 3y ago
    New schools appear as soon as the money is available.
  - tastyfreeze 3y ago
    If there is money available the choices will appear. When it stops being about the building and government curriculum and starts becoming about satisfying parents desire to have their child educated, anybody can become a teacher or organize a school. If the teacher fails to deliver the parents will go elsewhere. The free market for schools and teachers is created the moment Department of Education is eliminated and replaced with education vouchers for all.
- KerrAvon 3y ago
  Actually, public education has to mean public schools. Vouchers are a band-aid invented by right-wing nutjobs to allow religious schools to be funded by public money; they do this by taking money away from secular public schools. If public schools are broken, we need to fix the public schools, not break them further.
  - nsxwolf 3y ago
    I'm almost 50. I've watched this scam play out my entire life. We've gotta fix the public schools, they said, when I was in public school. They said it year after year, generation after generation. It's never happening. We absolutely should allow vouchers to go to religious private schools and secular private schools alike. It's time to bleed the public schools dry and use their lots to build more housing.
    - duskwuff 3y ago
      It may surprise you to hear this, but intentionally destroying the public school system and hoping that the private sector will step in with a replacement is not a viable solution to public schooling. Private schools are not required to serve all students, either in a socioeconomic sense or a geographic one. Allowing public schools to fall into terminal disrepair does a massive disservice to those students who wouldn't be served appropriately by private schools.
      - scarmig 3y ago
        Public schools as they exist today are already in a state of terminal disrepair and do a massive disservice to all their students. Note that the original article is about public schools banning the teaching of algebra for all students before high school because too many students fail it. Parents complain about this and fight against it but are ignored. So what are we supposed to do? There are only so many school board meetings you can attend only to get eye rolls from officials.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- HlessClaudesman 3y ago
  Escape hatch to where?
- lumb63 3y ago
  > Public education doesn’t have to mean public schools. This is eloquently put. I’ve never heard it said that way. There is no reason to believe that an entity like the government, great for accumulating and distributing the money required for public education, is a good or efficient agent for administering said education. We see this in many other fields. For instance, non-government researchers receive government grants for research. Similarly (for better or worse), the government gives money for agricultural subsidies; nobody proposes that the government ought to run the farm. It is intuitive to us that specialists in a given field may not work for the government; it is high time we applied the same logic to education.
- tmaly 3y ago
  Compare how much money US spends on average per student in public education verse other countries. How do students rank academically in US compared to other countries? Consider this If you look at the system without vouchers, there is no market mechanism to correct the situation everyone is complaining about. There are no incentives. Each year, more and more money is dumped into the system. If you introduce competition, then schools have to start fixing problems if they want to get the funding.
  - nsxwolf 3y ago
    Yes. If it were the case that public schools were universally regarded as great, and everyone felt well served by them, it would be right to be skeptical of private interests coming in and trying to capture some of that money for themselves. But we have the exact opposite of that situation.
    - tmaly 3y ago
      I would argue that finding a better solution to our education problems would be a bigger achievement for humanity than putting someone on Mars.
blowski 3y ago
There are still some grammar schools, but they are badly distributed, because it’s based on political views from past ages. For example, the city of Southend in Essex has about 7000 grammar school places. Entire counties of Norfolk and Suffolk have none.
gadders 3y ago
Grammar schools do still exist in a few hold-out counties like Kent. One thing that was repealed by the last Labour government was the Assisted Places Scheme [1]. If you scored highly enough the government would pay for a child to go to private school. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_Places_Scheme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_Places_Scheme

declan_roberts 3y ago

Also being treated like a privileged enemy of the school while trying to fix it.

nsxwolf 3y ago

And if you could fix the system, it would have been fixed by now. If you have a kid today, you have 5-6 years to fix the system before it starts failing them. Your kid will be grown before any meaningful change is made, and any harms caused by the current system will be fully baked in. If you have money, you have an escape hatch right now. Vouchers make that escape hatch available to more people. Public education doesn't have to mean public schools.

mfer 3y ago
You need a decent school option within an acceptable travel distance. There are many who don't have a good choice like that.
- nsxwolf 3y ago
  New schools appear as soon as the money is available.
- tastyfreeze 3y ago
  If there is money available the choices will appear. When it stops being about the building and government curriculum and starts becoming about satisfying parents desire to have their child educated, anybody can become a teacher or organize a school. If the teacher fails to deliver the parents will go elsewhere. The free market for schools and teachers is created the moment Department of Education is eliminated and replaced with education vouchers for all.
KerrAvon 3y ago
Actually, public education has to mean public schools. Vouchers are a band-aid invented by right-wing nutjobs to allow religious schools to be funded by public money; they do this by taking money away from secular public schools. If public schools are broken, we need to fix the public schools, not break them further.
- nsxwolf 3y ago
  I'm almost 50. I've watched this scam play out my entire life. We've gotta fix the public schools, they said, when I was in public school. They said it year after year, generation after generation. It's never happening. We absolutely should allow vouchers to go to religious private schools and secular private schools alike. It's time to bleed the public schools dry and use their lots to build more housing.
  - duskwuff 3y ago
    It may surprise you to hear this, but intentionally destroying the public school system and hoping that the private sector will step in with a replacement is not a viable solution to public schooling. Private schools are not required to serve all students, either in a socioeconomic sense or a geographic one. Allowing public schools to fall into terminal disrepair does a massive disservice to those students who wouldn't be served appropriately by private schools.
    - scarmig 3y ago
      Public schools as they exist today are already in a state of terminal disrepair and do a massive disservice to all their students. Note that the original article is about public schools banning the teaching of algebra for all students before high school because too many students fail it. Parents complain about this and fight against it but are ignored. So what are we supposed to do? There are only so many school board meetings you can attend only to get eye rolls from officials.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
HlessClaudesman 3y ago
Escape hatch to where?
lumb63 3y ago
> Public education doesn’t have to mean public schools. This is eloquently put. I’ve never heard it said that way. There is no reason to believe that an entity like the government, great for accumulating and distributing the money required for public education, is a good or efficient agent for administering said education. We see this in many other fields. For instance, non-government researchers receive government grants for research. Similarly (for better or worse), the government gives money for agricultural subsidies; nobody proposes that the government ought to run the farm. It is intuitive to us that specialists in a given field may not work for the government; it is high time we applied the same logic to education.
tmaly 3y ago
Compare how much money US spends on average per student in public education verse other countries. How do students rank academically in US compared to other countries? Consider this If you look at the system without vouchers, there is no market mechanism to correct the situation everyone is complaining about. There are no incentives. Each year, more and more money is dumped into the system. If you introduce competition, then schools have to start fixing problems if they want to get the funding.
- nsxwolf 3y ago
  Yes. If it were the case that public schools were universally regarded as great, and everyone felt well served by them, it would be right to be skeptical of private interests coming in and trying to capture some of that money for themselves. But we have the exact opposite of that situation.
  - tmaly 3y ago
    I would argue that finding a better solution to our education problems would be a bigger achievement for humanity than putting someone on Mars.

blowski 3y ago

There are still some grammar schools, but they are badly distributed, because it’s based on political views from past ages. For example, the city of Southend in Essex has about 7000 grammar school places. Entire counties of Norfolk and Suffolk have none.

gadders 3y ago

Grammar schools do still exist in a few hold-out counties like Kent. One thing that was repealed by the last Labour government was the Assisted Places Scheme [1]. If you scored highly enough the government would pay for a child to go to private school. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_Places_Scheme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_Places_Scheme