5 ms·

Why give any weight at all to sports achievement in a university? What's one thing got to do with the other?

by efdee 3y ago

tekla 3y ago
Athletics has always been a part of the curriculum of a full liberal arts education. I do think SOLELY athletics may be a bit much, but its impossible to ignore that athletics and education have been intertwined ever since the idea of a liberal arts education existed.
ghaff 3y ago
You can certainly argue that some schools overweight it but schools take into account lots of things that aren't strictly academic.
aetimmes 3y ago
Maybe not MIT, but there are many universities whose bottom lines are significantly impacted by the success of their sports programs and the television deals that come with them.
idopmstuff 3y ago
I think intelligent, non-sporting people tend to have too strong of a bias against sports being factored into admissions. Universities look at lots of things that indicate someone is an intelligent, ambitious, hard-working person. That includes success at a high level in all kinds of things - if you're a top-level musician or dancer, they look favorably on that. If you've started a successful business, they look favorably upon that. If you started a charitable organization that contributed meaningfully to people's lives, they look favorably upon that. I think in general, we'd all agree that those are good - they show that those people are driven and able to achieve something significant. So does being an elite football player. You have to be up at the crack of dawn for practice. You need to work well with other people. You need to memorize playbooks. It's a lot of work and commitment. Why shouldn't a university look upon that favorably?
- david927 3y ago
  I think the difference is in how it's approached. Admissions never say, "We need 20 bassoon players every year," but they absolutely look for 20 football players every year. And it's a known way to game admissions. How many people do you know who row or fence? Because top schools are looking for a set number of people who are good at those sports each year and wealthy parents can get their kids top coaching for such boutique sports, knowing that.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Rowing is actually a fairly popular activity from what I see. (Caveat that I have some availability bias living outside of Boston.) It's also quite popular at the high school level, especially in the sort of private schools we have around here.
    - bluepod4 3y ago
      You can also join the rowing team at certain “elite” colleges without having any prior experience (besides knowing how to swim).
      - ghaff 3y ago
        There are multiple levels of crew at schools that take it even halfway seriously. I imagine I could have gotten on freshman/JV crew undergrad had I wanted to in spite of not having rowed before. (I was interested in high school but my school never got it organized.) And I played club rugby undergrad without having done it before. Lots of people play various non-intramural club sports without prior experience.
  - bluepod4 3y ago
    > but they absolutely look for 20 football players every year. Yeah, out of a freshman class size of about 4,000 students. It’s negligible.
    - 3y ago
squokko 3y ago
Robust health is positively correlated with pretty much every metric of life success. Success in athletics is not only a sign of positive health but also another data point on work ethic. There are some people who can get a 1600 on their SATs without ever studying and there are some people who can run a 5:30 mile without ever really training, but very few people who can do both.
no_wizard 3y ago
Sports is a huge money driver for some universities. Its a big revenue driver[0]. Performance of the team(s) also drives bigger contributions[1][2] by alumni when it comes to donations [0]: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/analysis-who-is-winning-in-the-high-revenue-world-of-college-sports https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/analysis-who-is-winning... [1]: https://gceps.princeton.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/162rosen.pdf https://gceps.princeton.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/162ro... [2]: https://digital.sandiego.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1917&context=dissertations https://digital.sandiego.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=191...
userabchn 3y ago
It demonstrates the ability to dedicate yourself to something and achieve success.

Why give any weight at all to sports achievement in a university? What's one thing got to do with the other?

by efdee 3y ago

Why give any weight at all to sports achievement in a university? What's one thing got to do with the other?

Athletics has always been a part of the curriculum of a full liberal arts education. I do think SOLELY athletics may be a bit much, but its impossible to ignore that athletics and education have been intertwined ever since the idea of a liberal arts education existed.

ghaff 3y ago

You can certainly argue that some schools overweight it but schools take into account lots of things that aren't strictly academic.

aetimmes 3y ago

Maybe not MIT, but there are many universities whose bottom lines are significantly impacted by the success of their sports programs and the television deals that come with them.

idopmstuff 3y ago

I think intelligent, non-sporting people tend to have too strong of a bias against sports being factored into admissions. Universities look at lots of things that indicate someone is an intelligent, ambitious, hard-working person. That includes success at a high level in all kinds of things - if you're a top-level musician or dancer, they look favorably on that. If you've started a successful business, they look favorably upon that. If you started a charitable organization that contributed meaningfully to people's lives, they look favorably upon that. I think in general, we'd all agree that those are good - they show that those people are driven and able to achieve something significant. So does being an elite football player. You have to be up at the crack of dawn for practice. You need to work well with other people. You need to memorize playbooks. It's a lot of work and commitment. Why shouldn't a university look upon that favorably?

david927 3y ago
I think the difference is in how it's approached. Admissions never say, "We need 20 bassoon players every year," but they absolutely look for 20 football players every year. And it's a known way to game admissions. How many people do you know who row or fence? Because top schools are looking for a set number of people who are good at those sports each year and wealthy parents can get their kids top coaching for such boutique sports, knowing that.
- ghaff 3y ago
  Rowing is actually a fairly popular activity from what I see. (Caveat that I have some availability bias living outside of Boston.) It's also quite popular at the high school level, especially in the sort of private schools we have around here.
  - bluepod4 3y ago
    You can also join the rowing team at certain “elite” colleges without having any prior experience (besides knowing how to swim).
    - ghaff 3y ago
      There are multiple levels of crew at schools that take it even halfway seriously. I imagine I could have gotten on freshman/JV crew undergrad had I wanted to in spite of not having rowed before. (I was interested in high school but my school never got it organized.) And I played club rugby undergrad without having done it before. Lots of people play various non-intramural club sports without prior experience.
- bluepod4 3y ago
  > but they absolutely look for 20 football players every year. Yeah, out of a freshman class size of about 4,000 students. It’s negligible.
  - 3y ago

squokko 3y ago

Robust health is positively correlated with pretty much every metric of life success. Success in athletics is not only a sign of positive health but also another data point on work ethic. There are some people who can get a 1600 on their SATs without ever studying and there are some people who can run a 5:30 mile without ever really training, but very few people who can do both.

no_wizard 3y ago

Sports is a huge money driver for some universities. Its a big revenue driver[0]. Performance of the team(s) also drives bigger contributions[1][2] by alumni when it comes to donations [0]: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/analysis-who-is-winning-in-the-high-revenue-world-of-college-sports https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/analysis-who-is-winning... [1]: https://gceps.princeton.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/162rosen.pdf https://gceps.princeton.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/162ro... [2]: https://digital.sandiego.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1917&context=dissertations https://digital.sandiego.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=191...

userabchn 3y ago

It demonstrates the ability to dedicate yourself to something and achieve success.