5 ms·

You can have work theater or work surveillance, take your pick. Someone has to make sure the money is being spent well and if you’re not good at making that cas

by isykt 3y ago

You can have work theater or work surveillance, take your pick. Someone has to make sure the money is being spent well and if you’re not good at making that case you’ll get canned. All these “I work better from home” folks never mention how they prove it to the company.

bearjaws 3y ago
Why would they need to prove it on an arbitrary forum? Shouldn't their company / hiring manager have KPIs for their role and track them ? By maintaining that job they are clearly meeting whomever's opinion of good enough to keep the job.
- michaelt 3y ago
  > By maintaining that job they are clearly meeting whomever's opinion of good enough to keep the job. By the same rationale, would you agree that if a company insists on workers returning to the office, the are clearly not meeting whomever's opinion?
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    Companies rarely openly say decreased productivity is the reason of RTO. It's always obscured in positive-sounding rhetoric about fostering collaboration, etc. The real reason, whether it is actually became they are not meeting expectations on one extreme, or to stroke the ego of executives on the other extreme, or simply to justify office real estate, is known only to management.
- lliamander 3y ago
  Having good KPIs is hard. It does not excuse surveillance management, but it makes it understandable. I think it is important for employees that want to have less surveillance put forth the effort to heavily communicate to management.
jkaptur 3y ago
I mean, one easy way I prove it is by showing up on time to meetings because I don't have to scramble between two conference rooms. That's just to start.
throwawaysleep 3y ago
Simple question. Are you happy with my output or not? Are you happy with my tickets solved, APIs built, etc? How does milling around attending meetings help you answer that? How does having me in excruciating team building sessions or Scrum meetings where I say nothing help you answer that? If yes, let me work. If no, fire me.
dimitrios1 3y ago
What do I need to prove? That I produced x widgets in y hours? How about my team meets their goals and KPIs YoY consistently. How about there's work on the board, and theres 2 weeks to get it done, and we get it done. What more surveillance do you need? If theres dead weight on the team, it will be brought to light one way or another, through manager 1 on 1's, peer feedback, check ins, personal goals, etc.
Peroni 3y ago
>All these “I work better from home” folks never mention how they prove it to the company. How do those in the office prove it? Are you looking at their screen/output over their shoulder? The only physically noticeable measure of "productivity" in an office is time spent at your desk. Any other measure of productivity has absolutely nothing to do with being in an office or working from home.
- intelVISA 3y ago
  People can work 12hr days and never hit the mark in some fields, good shops don't pay for time 'worked' like it's a McDonald's shift but for impact/value produced. Thankfully in SWE it's quite easy to filter work from 'work': code conforms to the spec or it doesn't :)
no_wizard 3y ago
By proving on my measurable KPIs & Delivering more work in less time. The metrics measured are higher than when I worked an office, by a good margin. This is appearing to be an industry trend as well[0] that WFH is on average more productive. RTO has more to do with management "productivity paranoia"[1] than anything else, seemingly [0]: https://www.vox.com/recode/23129752/work-from-home-productivity https://www.vox.com/recode/23129752/work-from-home-productiv... [1]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/glebtsipursky/2022/11/03/workers-are-less-productive-working-remotely-at-least-thats-what-their-bosses-think/?sh=49faec42286a https://www.forbes.com/sites/glebtsipursky/2022/11/03/worker...
eweise 3y ago
Well there's this thing called Jira which tracks all the value being contributed to the product.
- isykt 3y ago
  If everything you contribute to the product is tracked in Jira, you should consider your career trajectory. Managers are humans. They rely on a synthesis of data and social cues to form an opinion about how much to invest in your growth. As automation becomes more common, forming relationships with colleagues and managers will become more important. As money becomes more expensive, someone, somewhere will be looking at a spreadsheet drawing a red line for who to cut. That decision won’t be made using just # of JIRA tickets closed.
  - eweise 3y ago
    "forming relationships with colleagues and managers will become more important." Sounds like your think getting ahead is a just a bunch of ass kissing. At least in software companies, almost everything of value is stored, code, project plans, goals, product requirements, software designs, all the scrums ceremony stuff. If manager A is great at communicating with her colleagues and managers but missing their commitments, then they are out. If the senior engineers are producing crappy designs, then they will be out. If the regular engineers velocity is really low, they are out. I don't see how being in an office vs WFH makes any difference. Please be more specific.
isoprophlex 3y ago
> All these “I work better from home” folks never mention how they prove it to the company. Are you trolling? I'll assume honest intentions, but this is borderline flamebaiting. By showing you built what you promised you'd build.
manicennui 3y ago
I prove it by delivering. I've been promoted a number of times.

by isykt 3y ago

bearjaws 3y ago

Why would they need to prove it on an arbitrary forum? Shouldn't their company / hiring manager have KPIs for their role and track them ? By maintaining that job they are clearly meeting whomever's opinion of good enough to keep the job.

michaelt 3y ago
> By maintaining that job they are clearly meeting whomever's opinion of good enough to keep the job. By the same rationale, would you agree that if a company insists on workers returning to the office, the are clearly not meeting whomever's opinion?
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  Companies rarely openly say decreased productivity is the reason of RTO. It's always obscured in positive-sounding rhetoric about fostering collaboration, etc. The real reason, whether it is actually became they are not meeting expectations on one extreme, or to stroke the ego of executives on the other extreme, or simply to justify office real estate, is known only to management.
lliamander 3y ago
Having good KPIs is hard. It does not excuse surveillance management, but it makes it understandable. I think it is important for employees that want to have less surveillance put forth the effort to heavily communicate to management.

jkaptur 3y ago

I mean, one easy way I prove it is by showing up on time to meetings because I don't have to scramble between two conference rooms. That's just to start.

throwawaysleep 3y ago

Simple question. Are you happy with my output or not? Are you happy with my tickets solved, APIs built, etc? How does milling around attending meetings help you answer that? How does having me in excruciating team building sessions or Scrum meetings where I say nothing help you answer that? If yes, let me work. If no, fire me.

dimitrios1 3y ago

What do I need to prove? That I produced x widgets in y hours? How about my team meets their goals and KPIs YoY consistently. How about there's work on the board, and theres 2 weeks to get it done, and we get it done. What more surveillance do you need? If theres dead weight on the team, it will be brought to light one way or another, through manager 1 on 1's, peer feedback, check ins, personal goals, etc.

Peroni 3y ago

>All these “I work better from home” folks never mention how they prove it to the company. How do those in the office prove it? Are you looking at their screen/output over their shoulder? The only physically noticeable measure of "productivity" in an office is time spent at your desk. Any other measure of productivity has absolutely nothing to do with being in an office or working from home.

intelVISA 3y ago
People can work 12hr days and never hit the mark in some fields, good shops don't pay for time 'worked' like it's a McDonald's shift but for impact/value produced. Thankfully in SWE it's quite easy to filter work from 'work': code conforms to the spec or it doesn't :)

no_wizard 3y ago

By proving on my measurable KPIs & Delivering more work in less time. The metrics measured are higher than when I worked an office, by a good margin. This is appearing to be an industry trend as well[0] that WFH is on average more productive. RTO has more to do with management "productivity paranoia"[1] than anything else, seemingly [0]: https://www.vox.com/recode/23129752/work-from-home-productivity https://www.vox.com/recode/23129752/work-from-home-productiv... [1]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/glebtsipursky/2022/11/03/workers-are-less-productive-working-remotely-at-least-thats-what-their-bosses-think/?sh=49faec42286a https://www.forbes.com/sites/glebtsipursky/2022/11/03/worker...

eweise 3y ago

Well there's this thing called Jira which tracks all the value being contributed to the product.

isykt 3y ago
If everything you contribute to the product is tracked in Jira, you should consider your career trajectory. Managers are humans. They rely on a synthesis of data and social cues to form an opinion about how much to invest in your growth. As automation becomes more common, forming relationships with colleagues and managers will become more important. As money becomes more expensive, someone, somewhere will be looking at a spreadsheet drawing a red line for who to cut. That decision won’t be made using just # of JIRA tickets closed.
- eweise 3y ago
  "forming relationships with colleagues and managers will become more important." Sounds like your think getting ahead is a just a bunch of ass kissing. At least in software companies, almost everything of value is stored, code, project plans, goals, product requirements, software designs, all the scrums ceremony stuff. If manager A is great at communicating with her colleagues and managers but missing their commitments, then they are out. If the senior engineers are producing crappy designs, then they will be out. If the regular engineers velocity is really low, they are out. I don't see how being in an office vs WFH makes any difference. Please be more specific.

isoprophlex 3y ago

> All these “I work better from home” folks never mention how they prove it to the company. Are you trolling? I'll assume honest intentions, but this is borderline flamebaiting. By showing you built what you promised you'd build.

manicennui 3y ago

I prove it by delivering. I've been promoted a number of times.