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Yeah, this is an epidemic in workplaces. Everyone just wants to appear to do things - so the hard things don't get done because everyone is more focused on show

Yeah, this is an epidemic in workplaces. Everyone just wants to appear to do things - so the hard things don't get done because everyone is more focused on showing that they work instead of tackling the problems. I don't really have a good solution to this but it's really messed up.

ryanSrich 3y ago
Remote work that’s based on quality output is the solution. At least in software development. My first job was in an office. I became friends with someone who I’ll say mastered the “art of not working”. He was always the first one in, the last one out. When decisions needed to be made, he was the one people would consult with. However, he never did any meaningful work. It’s not like he was a people manager. He wasn’t. He was a developer. But he never developed anything. He just appeared to. That appearance of work gave him job security, raises, and eventually more power within the company. It truly was an art form as I don’t think any company would have noticed. That’s how good he was.
- kzrdude 3y ago
  How did you notice?
- HL33tibCe7 3y ago
  > When decisions needed to be made, he was the one people would consult with. Sounds like a useful employee. Maybe not rushing around constantly allowed him time to actually think through problems.
  - ryanSrich 3y ago
    Sure but he wasn’t even the best dev on the team, or even someone I would have went to for answers. He just appeared to be. The entire thing was a ruse. Also, it’s not that he wasn’t running around. That’s actually my point. If running around and looking busy is what it took, he’d do that. Essentially he did everything he could to give the appearance of working. Now that I’ve been in the industry for over a decade, I can say it’s a pretty common type of character. They’re usually the ones that get promoted.
    - blindhippo 3y ago
      Without knowing details, it could be that this person (or persons in your experience) are actually delivering work that doesn't fit what you deem to be meaningful work. Yet the businesses are rewarding them. Might be a calibration issue on your side potentially?
      - Given_47 3y ago
        I would assume they’re suggesting the company also has misaligned incentives
    - ryandrake 3y ago
      I think we all have worked with this guy. When he set up his character, he put all his skill points into Charisma.
    - axus 3y ago
      That is a well-paid rubber duck, and if they're helping the company make money then good for them.
- jimbob21 3y ago
  You've just described a technical director, so it is no surprise that he was promoted.
deebosong 3y ago
"Everyone just wants to appear to do things - so the hard things don't get done because everyone is more focused on showing that they work instead of tackling the problems." I agree. Seems like an internal motivation thing. Not saying it's easy, simple, or in some instances even possible. But gotta want to do it for your own reasons when the external incentives (optics that lead to staying hired or getting promoted or building a reliable & professional reputation, and staving off the flip-sides as well) aren't there anymore.
throwawaysleep 3y ago
Have my pay reflect wins I achieve. As things stand, my incentives are to appear busy to my boss and otherwise do as little as possible. If I achieve something, there should be cash money in my pocket above having done nothing. Currently, my incentive is to be overemployed and figure out how to seem just above mediocre. Key word being "seem." I am very dedicated to doing as little work as possible to allow for more overemployment. Tackling a hard problem has the same pay as spending all day "consulting stakeholders" and getting bogged down in Scrum process.
- groby_b 3y ago
  > If I achieve something, there should be cash money in my pocket above having done nothing There is cash money in your pocket in advance, so you do something. That's what a salary is. The problem lies with the company not firing you and instead focusing on folks who actually do work.
  - throwawaysleep 3y ago
    Carrot or stick can be used, but the same lack of incentive applies.
webnrrd2k 3y ago
There is a qoute about exactly this problem, but coming at if from a very different context... ”The primary thing when you take a sword in your hands is your intention to cut the enemy, whatever the means. Whenever you parry, hit, spring, strike or touch the enemy's cutting sword, you must cut the enemy in the same movement. It is essential to attain this. If you think only of hitting, springing, striking or touching the enemy, you will not be able actually to cut him." Miyamoto Musashi, The Book Of Five Rings That idea is also said as: "the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing". It's been a difficult thing to do in my life, and I get it when other people get distracted, as I often do myself. And, very often I need to just go along with distractions in order to accomplish things. In practice, it's not an easy skill.
- radiator 3y ago
  Perhaps somehow to you that quote is about exactly the same problem but ... it doesn't look like it.
  - tra3 3y ago
    It's about intention. If your goal is to get stuff done, you'll get stuff done. If your goal is to appear to be getting stuff done, you may be perceived as someone productive but the facts on the ground will be different.
vsareto 3y ago
The incentives often don't line up. And there can sometimes be a sticky status quo that resists change. You may also get politically subverted or just plain lied to. It's hard to predict these during a job interview. The incentive problem started when it became better to change jobs for higher compensation. Working less intensely for the same pay while you secretly manage life problems or just play around is also appealing. Your earnings are also typically soft capped as an individual hard worker. And then there's no real security to back you up even if you decide to get invested - you can still be let go for no fault of your own. The economy can't keep asking people to stay in these kinds of jobs while also eroding their standard of living at their mostly-static income levels. It's too easy to feel like a sucker being a hard worker and this is a recent cultural shift (within the last two decades IMO).
esafak 3y ago
It is hard to objectively measure the productivity of knowledge work, so people optimize the company's proxy metrics, and on persuading the people that are assessing their performance. And then there are companies where nobody is even trying because there are no incentives to improve; e.g., government offices, monopolies, etc.

ryanSrich 3y ago

Remote work that’s based on quality output is the solution. At least in software development. My first job was in an office. I became friends with someone who I’ll say mastered the “art of not working”. He was always the first one in, the last one out. When decisions needed to be made, he was the one people would consult with. However, he never did any meaningful work. It’s not like he was a people manager. He wasn’t. He was a developer. But he never developed anything. He just appeared to. That appearance of work gave him job security, raises, and eventually more power within the company. It truly was an art form as I don’t think any company would have noticed. That’s how good he was.

kzrdude 3y ago
How did you notice?
HL33tibCe7 3y ago
> When decisions needed to be made, he was the one people would consult with. Sounds like a useful employee. Maybe not rushing around constantly allowed him time to actually think through problems.
- ryanSrich 3y ago
  Sure but he wasn’t even the best dev on the team, or even someone I would have went to for answers. He just appeared to be. The entire thing was a ruse. Also, it’s not that he wasn’t running around. That’s actually my point. If running around and looking busy is what it took, he’d do that. Essentially he did everything he could to give the appearance of working. Now that I’ve been in the industry for over a decade, I can say it’s a pretty common type of character. They’re usually the ones that get promoted.
  - blindhippo 3y ago
    Without knowing details, it could be that this person (or persons in your experience) are actually delivering work that doesn't fit what you deem to be meaningful work. Yet the businesses are rewarding them. Might be a calibration issue on your side potentially?
    - Given_47 3y ago
      I would assume they’re suggesting the company also has misaligned incentives
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    I think we all have worked with this guy. When he set up his character, he put all his skill points into Charisma.
  - axus 3y ago
    That is a well-paid rubber duck, and if they're helping the company make money then good for them.
jimbob21 3y ago
You've just described a technical director, so it is no surprise that he was promoted.

deebosong 3y ago

"Everyone just wants to appear to do things - so the hard things don't get done because everyone is more focused on showing that they work instead of tackling the problems." I agree. Seems like an internal motivation thing. Not saying it's easy, simple, or in some instances even possible. But gotta want to do it for your own reasons when the external incentives (optics that lead to staying hired or getting promoted or building a reliable & professional reputation, and staving off the flip-sides as well) aren't there anymore.

throwawaysleep 3y ago

Have my pay reflect wins I achieve. As things stand, my incentives are to appear busy to my boss and otherwise do as little as possible. If I achieve something, there should be cash money in my pocket above having done nothing. Currently, my incentive is to be overemployed and figure out how to seem just above mediocre. Key word being "seem." I am very dedicated to doing as little work as possible to allow for more overemployment. Tackling a hard problem has the same pay as spending all day "consulting stakeholders" and getting bogged down in Scrum process.

groby_b 3y ago
> If I achieve something, there should be cash money in my pocket above having done nothing There is cash money in your pocket in advance, so you do something. That's what a salary is. The problem lies with the company not firing you and instead focusing on folks who actually do work.
- throwawaysleep 3y ago
  Carrot or stick can be used, but the same lack of incentive applies.

webnrrd2k 3y ago

There is a qoute about exactly this problem, but coming at if from a very different context... ”The primary thing when you take a sword in your hands is your intention to cut the enemy, whatever the means. Whenever you parry, hit, spring, strike or touch the enemy's cutting sword, you must cut the enemy in the same movement. It is essential to attain this. If you think only of hitting, springing, striking or touching the enemy, you will not be able actually to cut him." Miyamoto Musashi, The Book Of Five Rings That idea is also said as: "the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing". It's been a difficult thing to do in my life, and I get it when other people get distracted, as I often do myself. And, very often I need to just go along with distractions in order to accomplish things. In practice, it's not an easy skill.

radiator 3y ago
Perhaps somehow to you that quote is about exactly the same problem but ... it doesn't look like it.
- tra3 3y ago
  It's about intention. If your goal is to get stuff done, you'll get stuff done. If your goal is to appear to be getting stuff done, you may be perceived as someone productive but the facts on the ground will be different.

vsareto 3y ago

The incentives often don't line up. And there can sometimes be a sticky status quo that resists change. You may also get politically subverted or just plain lied to. It's hard to predict these during a job interview. The incentive problem started when it became better to change jobs for higher compensation. Working less intensely for the same pay while you secretly manage life problems or just play around is also appealing. Your earnings are also typically soft capped as an individual hard worker. And then there's no real security to back you up even if you decide to get invested - you can still be let go for no fault of your own. The economy can't keep asking people to stay in these kinds of jobs while also eroding their standard of living at their mostly-static income levels. It's too easy to feel like a sucker being a hard worker and this is a recent cultural shift (within the last two decades IMO).

esafak 3y ago

It is hard to objectively measure the productivity of knowledge work, so people optimize the company's proxy metrics, and on persuading the people that are assessing their performance. And then there are companies where nobody is even trying because there are no incentives to improve; e.g., government offices, monopolies, etc.