10 ms·

Framework Laptop 16 pre-orders are now open

93 points by lytedev 3y ago

lytedev 3y ago
There's also a marketing video for those interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9Ww_7wwNkM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9Ww_7wwNkM
zmk5 3y ago
Honestly, it was much cheaper than I had assumed it would be. A pre-built "performance" version starts at $1,699 (Ryzen 7 7840HS) with 16GB RAM and 512GB SSD. Compare that to the entry 16 inch MacBook Pro at $2499. The "overkill" system with a Ryzen 9 7940HS, 32GB RAM and 1TB SSD is $2099. A pseudo comparison to the 16 inch MacBook Pro with M2 Pro, 32GB RAM and a 1TB SSD is $3099. Also these systems are cheaper if done DIY and no Windows tax. Framework really might have a winner if this system can live up to their promises. EDIT: The verge also has a deep dive into the system https://www.theverge.com/22665800/framework-laptop-16-hands-on-preview-modular-gaming-laptop?utm_campaign=theverge&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter https://www.theverge.com/22665800/framework-laptop-16-hands-...
- trashcanman 3y ago
  No compare it to the MBA 15 w 512GB SSD and 16GB RAM upgrades and the 70W charger from their educational store + $150 gift card offer. $1575 inc Cali tax
  - ceearrbee 3y ago
    Are they not referring to the default price which is available to all? Adding all those situational discounts is not a fair comparison since it requires a very specific set of circumstances to achieve it.
    - zmk5 3y ago
      Yeah I was just referring to default prices. The only one I modified was the comparison to the Overkill system because the base Apple configuration does not have 32GB of RAM and 1TB SSD.
    - trashcanman 3y ago
      Ok, but that same spec is 1699 plus tax direct from Apple without a discount so the same as frameworks pre built 16 inch option that ships in Q4. If you compare their “build it yourself and bring your own OS” version without memory or storage shipping in late Q4 the base MBA 15 +70W charger w/o discount is still $100 cheaper, shipping now and very likely will outperform w double the battery life
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    Why compare it to a smaller computer with no expandability with pricing that is unavailable to a huge majority of consumers?
    - trashcanman 3y ago
      Apple doesn’t verify that purchases from the educational store are from students it’s honor system. Those prices are available to everyone, in small quantities. Sit the 15 inch MBA next to the 16 inch MBP and the screens look identical. Performance wise the M2 w unified memory crushes X86 systems across the benchmarks at half the power budget.
      - onlypositive 3y ago
        Ah yes, let me tell HR about this neat trick.
      - canuckintime 3y ago
        > Sit the 15 inch MBA next to the 16 inch MBP and the screens look identical. No, they do not.
  - Rebelgecko 3y ago
    What's the comparison look like with 2TB of storage? And maybe a bit more RAM (I don't think MBAs let you upgrade after purchase so buying a 512GB machine seems shortsighted for a lot of use cases unless all your development is in the cloud)
    - trashcanman 3y ago
      The storage and memory upgrades are expensive and also have a penalty in terms of power. Memory draws the same current regardless of if it’s being used and that is significant. Unified memory is also very different, has much higher bandwidth than RAM and lower latency. You can’t compare unified memory with RAM. As far as the SSD, the base option comes with one 256GB NAND flash IC, where if you upgrade to 512GB they have to add a second. That matters because adding a second means you double the IO bandwidth using their current design. It’s something like 3500 vs 7500 MB/s. If you add more NAND modules you also scale up the IO speed further but the difference between 3500 and 7500 is significant for all workloads where above that you probably won’t see a gain except in niche applications like video editing, assuming you have the complimentary processing power and unified memory to utilize that throughput. For storage, Apple provides 2TB cloud service for $10/mo and these have wifi 6E so it’s cheaper to use the cloud than buy the storage, assuming it’s not working storage, and safer too. Also, upgrades on Apple products hold their market value very poorly. The M2 studio just came out and maxed out M1 units are on sale NIB at 1/4 price of retail from 3 months ago, which is not at all a true quantification of performance since the M2 is only what 15-20% faster. So after quite some research for the MBA 15; 16GB + 512GB + 70W adapter is the optimum for power draw, performance, cost and value preservation. Overall, it seems the best value strategy with Apple products is to take the first upgrade for memory and storage and leave it at that. You can then resell every year and recoup 60% and upgrade to the latest w a new battery. Apple is actually very cheap after the first investment considering the productivity and time saving benefits, and you can’t steal an Apple device. Just don’t drop it Also if you are considering big upgrades, compare the cost to just buying two base units as the base units are way closer to the manufacturing cost. Often there is more benefit to having two expendable units and they will hold their resale value better.
      - 3y ago
  - senknvd 3y ago
    The M2 can't match the 7840HS in CPU performance though[1]. It's half as fast in multi-core benchmarks and a bit slower in single-core. [1]: https://www.notebookcheck.net/M2-vs-R7-7840HS_14521_14948.247596.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/M2-vs-R7-7840HS_14521_14948.24...
    - trashcanman 3y ago
      Yes but the AMD design draws double the power even though it was fabbed on a lower process node. I mean it defeats the purpose of a portable. Now you need double the battery weight or lose half the runtime. No, the M2 still wins. If processing is the goal at the expense of portability then you can buy a nice 64 core EPYC system for $1700
      - lifeformed 3y ago
        The battery life is still fine. Plugging in once in a while isn't a huge deal. I'd rather save time compiling than not having to plug in once every 8 hours.
      - sudosysgen 3y ago
        Double the power for double the performance indicates you can use a different scheduler if you don't need performance. Also, the CPU isn't the only powerdraw in a system, in my use the screen alone averages more power draw.
- washadjeffmad 3y ago
  Not being snarky or anything, but do you have easy access to broadband internet where you are, or do you live in a locale that prohibits VPN? It turned out more effective for me to buy a Chromebook and build a remote workstation to do actual work from, with the added benefit that I don't care if my Chromebook is lost or stolen because it doesn't store any data and costs less than a screen replacement (<$179). I also wasn't impressed by the highly externalized "there's an adapter for that" dongle-shuffle for basic ports when Apple did it 2017, and if I wanted to bring it all with me, I'd still need to buy and lug around a eGPU if I wanted to do any compute. Plus I get like 14 hours of full-brightness work time off of one charge, similar to an M1 MacBook Air. That's just my use case, of course. I've also built an SFF system with eDP when I have to travel and generate a lot of data and an Alienware m17 isn't enough.
  - kibwen 3y ago
    Remoting into a beefy workstation works for plenty of command-line tasks, but is going to yield a subpar experience for GUI tasks. As someone whose daily driver for several lean years was a $180 netbook (remember netbooks?), anything that I could do on my remote machine was grand (at the time, a $5 VPS), and anything that I had to do locally was a slog. > "there's an adapter for that" dongle-shuffle > lug around a eGPU One of the unique selling points of the Framework is that you can customize the ports to your needs, so dongles are unnecessary unless you need a whole lot of ports. And the Framework 16 doesn't need an eGPU, you can plug in an actual GPU that integrates with the body of the laptop.
  - zmk5 3y ago
    No worries habibi. Your post isn't snarky and I get where you are coming from with what you wrote. I was more commenting on my expectations of the price given that this is a (relatively) new company on a larger form factor that has a lot of interchangeable parts, external GPU, etc. This laptop isn't personally for me but I can see why people would like it. Also my workflow requires a lot of GUI applications for simulating and visualizing robotic movement and that is incredibly hard with ChromeOS or macOS.
  - senknvd 3y ago
    Which Chromebook did you go with? And what tools (IDEs, debuggers, etc.) do you use for development?
yellow_lead 3y ago
Their servers are overloaded [1] [1] https://twitter.com/FrameworkPuter/status/1681322206624882688 https://twitter.com/FrameworkPuter/status/168132220662488268... Not to create FOMO, but I would expect these to go quickly then.
- Deukhoofd 3y ago
  Apparently the first batch is sold out already, so yes, it's definitely going quickly
  - nrp 3y ago
    This is both the most server load we've ever seen and the fastest order throughput we've seen. It is genuinely difficult to gauge ahead of time.
    - Shawnj2 3y ago
      Good call to offer a pre order, that should make it easy to deliver them
anarcat 3y ago
dupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36773107 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36773107
neilv 3y ago
If they get a keyboard option with proper TrackPoint (including the design and positioning of the buttons), they can convert some ThinkPad devotees.
- Pet_Ant 3y ago
  I'd personally love to see an ortholinear layout option. I cannot go back after my Moonlander (like serious, I lost the ability to touch type on staggered). (Assuming they don't, won't load for me)
  - nrp 3y ago
    We've been working with Jack at OLKB on figuring out how to enable additional keyboard layout types. Since there is a broad range of different layout preferences, our goal is to make it easy for third party keyboard makers (like OLKB) to be able to create their own compatible keyboard modules.
- happy-dude 3y ago
  System76's next flagship, "Virgo," will be in-house designed and has a trackpoint keyboard with a layout will be similar to their line of Launch keyboards [1]. They've been teasing their Virgo prototype [2] [3] [4] on their social media feeds. [1] https://system76.com/accessories/launch https://system76.com/accessories/launch [2] https://fosstodon.org/@carlrichell/110571781656976874 https://fosstodon.org/@carlrichell/110571781656976874 [3] https://fosstodon.org/@soller/110442466523846236 https://fosstodon.org/@soller/110442466523846236 [4] https://fosstodon.org/@carlrichell/110435594412453909 https://fosstodon.org/@carlrichell/110435594412453909
  - neilv 3y ago
    This is exciting. Execution is everything, including the buttons. Someone designing this might also want to look at the Trackpoint buttons from before Lenovo switched to flat keyboards, and see the tactile merits of that (even when combined with flat keyboards).
theshrike79 3y ago
...and still not available in the Nordics. I'm still waiting here, money in hand, Framework. Could you please let me give it to you? (Directly, I don't want to use a dropshipping middleman)
- stavros 3y ago
  I don't understand why they ship to Germany and not in all of the EU. Surely it's as easy as telling the courier to take it a bit farther? Maybe it's related to VAT? I can't imagine that their payment processor won't handle that for them, though.
  - theshrike79 3y ago
    If they pay the VAT to any EU country, they don’t need to pay it again. I often order stuff from Germany because their VAT for computer stuff is lower than here.
    - akvadrako 3y ago
      You need to charge the VAT of where the consumer lives. But it's a trivial thing; you just use a service for it.
sylens 3y ago
I think the missing piece here would be the desktop version of Steam OS. All the other components are in place for a stellar gaming laptop
- wilsonnb3 3y ago
  You can install steamOS on it if you want, it is just a Linux distro like any other. Not sure why you would want to though, there are plenty of good Linux distros available and Windows is a much better choice for gaming if you don't need handheld specific features.
  - stavros 3y ago
    Nowadays I can play the vast majority on my games on Linux. It supports even more games than the Mac.
  - sylens 3y ago
    I know you can install the initial versions of SteamOS on it, but as far as I know, SteamOS 3 (the version powering the Steam Deck) has not been officially released for desktop use. My dream is a gaming laptop with the same type of suspend/resume capability that the Steam Deck has
xkcd-sucks 3y ago
Is S3 idle / suspend to RAM supported on this? Will buy it in a heartbeat if yes
- nrp 3y ago
  Neither Intel nor AMD officially support S3 on their recent CPU generations. Unofficially, S3 functionality has continued to degrade over time. On the positive side though, s0ix continues to improve for both Intel and AMD.
- akvadrako 3y ago
  You don't need it. On the past couple laptops I've owned (Lenovo and ASUS), S3 and Modern Standby use the same amount of power.
mustaflex 3y ago
still can't order from Belgium, a bummer.
mschild 3y ago
Maybe someone from framework or knowledge of this area can explain this, but I'm a bit baffled by the price difference between the prebuilt and DIY editions. LinusTechTips recently did a tour of one of the assembly stations in Taiwan. The DIY editions are fully assembled, tested, then disassembled, and put into packages. Considering that DIY has an additional labour intensive step, how come they're so much cheaper? Shouldn't the prebuilt ones be cheaper because they have less labour involved? https://youtu.be/7nXVJBGowmY&t=10m33s https://youtu.be/7nXVJBGowmY&t=10m33s
- nrp 3y ago
  The DIY Edition price is without memory, storage, and operating system, which are included in the pre-built versions. The memory, storage, bezel, and Input Cover that are temporarily installed into DIY Edition systems get cycled back through the line at the factory and reused repeatedly. If you order memory and storage as part of a DIY Edition configuration, those are new modules specific to your order that get added to the package at our fulfillment center. This means that we can enable thousands of different orderable DIY Edition configurations while only having a handful of unique configurations leaving the factory.
- aidenn0 3y ago
  DIY comes with no RAM, storage, or OS.
- anonymous_sorry 3y ago
  I configured a DIY edition with essentially the same specs as the pre-built version. The price differential was pretty close to the cost of the windows licence (which I don't need).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Thoeu388 3y ago
> The back two slots on each side can take up to 240W power input over USB-C using USB-PD 3.1. I would like an option for normal barrel jack power connector. I found USB-C power delivery very unreliable and not universal. For many applications (Pi4, Rock5) you are limited to original makers power adapter. Framework in this case is using very new PD spec to deliver 180W, so I assume it will be the same. There is also power renegotiation, when voltage drops to zero for couple of seconds. This board is also supposed to operate without batteries! With barrel plug I just need to know diameter and voltage. I already have many adapters, or power sources. Much easier to operate. All minipcs (minisforum, beeling) come with barrel plug and USB PD.
- nrp 3y ago
  We're using the USB-PD 3.1 standard and are testing for compatibility. We haven't seen issues when testing with other compliant USB-PD 3.1 adapters.
  - Thoeu388 3y ago
    Latter please provide list of adapters, that are tested with your product. Some mid-range stuff like Anker. It may save you many headaches on support.
- syntaxing 3y ago
  I strongly disagree with this. I purposely do not buy anything that’s not USB-C or lightning because I like being able to bring one charger for everything. Do you have older version of the RPi4? They accidentally made the USB-C non compliant but was fixed in late 2018, early 2019. Overall, as long as you have a 100W USB-C cable, you can practically charge anything (minus the now 240W standard).
  - aidenn0 3y ago
    I'm fine with either. The big advantage of the old way is if you have something approximately the right voltage (and sufficient wattage) all you need is a $0.25 barrel connector to charge. I damaged the power brick for my laptop once and ran it off of a bench supply with the original DC cable while I was waiting for the replacement to arrive in the mail. With USB-C PD, If you live sufficiently close to a Best Buy (or similar) you can usually just get the USB PD brick with the most listed versions supported and have it work "good enough" but I have definitely seen laptops/PD brick combinations that negotiate rather low power.
zapdrive 3y ago
Have they fixed the ridiculous sticking out ethernet port?
- kibwen 3y ago
  If you mean the optional ethernet port module, no, because 1) foldable ports are more fragile, expensive, and patented, and 2) if there's demand for it, anybody can manufacture an alternative ethernet module with a folding port, which is the point of being modular.
syntaxing 3y ago
How are the trackpads on these? The trackpad on the MacBook is probably one of the main reasons I can’t go back to another laptop.
- Rebelgecko 3y ago
  On previous generations I think it's decent. The main annoyances are that when I touch the glass a certain way I can feel a scratch or divot, and the pressure it takes to click varies based on where you click. Overall I think the hardware is great, my complaints are mostly with software/firmware/BIOS. My biggest complaints are with battery life, especially during standby. Framework has been working on a fix since 2022 but no dice so far. -Sent from my Framework laptop at maximum brightness because the brightness keys don't work unless I disable other sensors on the laptop
  - syntaxing 3y ago
    Battery life is probably my biggest reservation. The fact the MBP/MBA has 20 hrs of USAGE is unbeatable still. How is the power suspend? I had huge issues with Linux laptops, if I left it unplugged, the battery would drain 10% a day where it seems like a couple % on MacOS
    - Rebelgecko 3y ago
      Similar... I lose about 10%/day when the laptop is asleep. Some flavors of Linux easily transition to hibernate (which has much lower drain) if the laptop is asleep for a while, but I haven't gotten that to work in Fedora.
- wildrhythms 3y ago
  I have a M1 Macbook Air and a Framework 13, and the trackpad is objectively worse on the Framework. A little mushy, a little inconsistent in the click pressure needed across the surface, palm rejection is still an unsolved problem it seems, and I haven't found a Linux DE that can do three-finger drag and other gestures as naturally as the Macbook has been doing it for over a decade. :/ I hardly ever use the thing now because it's slower and hotter than the Air, blasting fans with a single Twitch stream running in the background, and about the same price too.
smusamashah 3y ago
I was looking for pre-orders to open expecting there will be an Nvidia GPU option too (for gaming + stable diffusion image generation etc). This has AMD Processor with integrated graphics only. I have never used a computer with AMD processors, will it be able to use Nvidia GPU later at all?
- CarVac 3y ago
  It has an option for a discrete AMD GPU. No word on other vendors' GPUs—yet.
  - smusamashah 3y ago
    Updated my comment after reading the post more closely. It does mean that it can get nvidia GPU in future right?
    - p_j_w 3y ago
      Framework has made no such promise, but I can’t imagine they’re not interested in making that happen.
- therapee 3y ago
  Configure > Expansion Bay System There's an AMD Radeon™ RX 7700S GPU available for 400$. The Verge article implied that they'd be releasing new GPUs in the future, as well. (emphasis on implied - it's not a certainty.)
- ploxiln 3y ago
  It has a dedicated AMD GPU option. That should work quite well for gaming. For CUDA ML stuff, it won't, as you suspect. (Will an Nvidia GPU come later, theoretically it could, but Nvidia is probably less willing to work with Framework ...)
  - smusamashah 3y ago
    Does it mean a thirdparty nvidia vendor like MSI etc can make one for framework though?
stavros 3y ago
Has anyone seen any benchmarks for these new AMD processors that show power per watt? I have the previous generation Intel processor, but it gets too hot too easily, and I'm thinking of upgrading to the new motherboard.
- senknvd 3y ago
  According to Notebookcheck[1], if you put a power limit on the 7940HS, it will achieve 15625 points on Cinebench multicore with an average of 66 watts. This puts it above the M2 Max in efficiency and right behind the M2 Pro. Far ahead of any Intel chip. If you don't want to mess with software power limiting, you'll have to wait for benchmarks of the 7840U. [1]: https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-9-7940HS-analysis-Zen4-Phoenix-is-ideally-as-efficient-as-Apple.713395.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-9-7940HS-analysis-Ze...
  - stavros 3y ago
    Hmm, that's really interesting. I guess I'd need to software limit, but still, that should mean I can get good performance and low battery usage, plus low fan usage. I might have to upgrade, the Intel processor I have right now is very annoying. What's the difference between the HS and the U? I'm not good at specs :/
therapee 3y ago
Word for those who'd like to pre-order as well - Create your account _before_ ordering. Perhaps this was just a one-off issue I had, but I tried setting up an account whilst ordering, as the website suggested, and it erred, charging my card but not sending me any receipt or creating any account, AFAICT. It may be that it's just a fluke, but you may as well be cautious. (from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36773107 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36773107, a duplicate submission)
- sezycei 3y ago
  I had this exact same experience. Highly recommend following the above advice.
anotherhue 3y ago
Question for those of you that use a similar form-factor laptop: Can you really use it without a desk?
- ben-schaaf 3y ago
  It's the same width as the 15" I use on my lap in the train every day. Wouldn't want something smaller personally.
- thomastjeffery 3y ago
  You can get a centered (no numpad) keyboard, and it has a second fan for the GPU; so I expect it would be quite comfortable. The only issue left is weight (4.6-5.3lbs), which seems to be the heavier side of average.
seanhunter 3y ago
Congrats to the framework team. This looks really awesome. I am looking to get one for sure. In particular I was extremely excited by the fact that Jack Humbert[1] is prototyping an ortholinear keyboard module[2]. I have 3 plancks and 1 prionic. Love me some Humbert keyboards, and it's an absolute dream to have an ortholinear keyboard on a laptop. [1] https://olkb.com/ https://olkb.com/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35280168 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35280168
yndoendo 3y ago
According to the specs. The keyboard is running QMK on a RP2040. Does anyone know if this will be programmable like quality mechanical keyboards? One thing missing from all high-end laptops is the ability to program the key mapping at firmware level so one does not have to re-configure the OS. Caps lock is such a useless and easily accessible key.
- nrp 3y ago
  Yes, you can use QMK tools like VIA to reconfigure, or even just modify the firmware. It's all open source: https://github.com/frameworkcomputer/qmk_firmware https://github.com/frameworkcomputer/qmk_firmware
- seanhunter 3y ago
  qmk keyboard firmware is awesome. You can do some incredible things involving toggling different layers, chords, different mappings if you hold vs tap a key, macros, all kinds of stuff. For an example of a qmk feature (that I don't actually use in my maps but it gives you an idea of the art of the possible) there is the "Space cadet shift" https://docs.qmk.fm/#/feature_space_cadet https://docs.qmk.fm/#/feature_space_cadet
ThinkBeat 3y ago
What is the interface bus for the external GPU? USB4?
- nrp 3y ago
  PCIe 4 x8. We have documentation around it here: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay
pentagrama 3y ago
Someone knows why they jump from Framework Laptop 13 to 16? And how this product naming will evolve?
- NoboruWataya 3y ago
  It's size, not generation. The Framework 16 is 16"
- nrp 3y ago
  The number reflects the screen size (rounded down). Framework Laptop 13 is 13.5". Framework Laptop 16 is 16". Both product lines are continuing in parallel.
  - pentagrama 3y ago
    Thank you
dogma1138 3y ago
No high core count Intel and NVIDIA GPU option?
payzero 3y ago
How is the battery life though, I heard it was pretty bad early on. That might have been for Linux or Windows specifically, I honestly cannot remember. Any insights would be appreciated.
lousken 3y ago
No reshippers? Why? Are there any checks in place or? Also I can't even select anything else besides USA
galkk 3y ago
Great thing that I probably won’t buy unless my thinkpad x1 extreme 1st gen will die. Picture wise the bezel on monitor is horribly large, and there were comments about chance of module with columnar layout on keyboard that didn’t materialize :(
7e 3y ago
You can upgrade each individual component, except that all the components are low volume bespoke, so you'd save more money upgrading all of them at once by buying a new laptop and selling your old one. In which case, you get a more integrated, lighter solution. And you can't upgrade the screen. Pass. I'm not so poor that I'm eating cat food and rummaging through trash for aluminum cans. I'm not the target market for this laptop.

93 points by lytedev 3y ago

There's also a marketing video for those interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9Ww_7wwNkM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9Ww_7wwNkM

zmk5 3y ago

Honestly, it was much cheaper than I had assumed it would be. A pre-built "performance" version starts at $1,699 (Ryzen 7 7840HS) with 16GB RAM and 512GB SSD. Compare that to the entry 16 inch MacBook Pro at $2499. The "overkill" system with a Ryzen 9 7940HS, 32GB RAM and 1TB SSD is $2099. A pseudo comparison to the 16 inch MacBook Pro with M2 Pro, 32GB RAM and a 1TB SSD is $3099. Also these systems are cheaper if done DIY and no Windows tax. Framework really might have a winner if this system can live up to their promises. EDIT: The verge also has a deep dive into the system https://www.theverge.com/22665800/framework-laptop-16-hands-on-preview-modular-gaming-laptop?utm_campaign=theverge&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter https://www.theverge.com/22665800/framework-laptop-16-hands-...

trashcanman 3y ago
No compare it to the MBA 15 w 512GB SSD and 16GB RAM upgrades and the 70W charger from their educational store + $150 gift card offer. $1575 inc Cali tax
- ceearrbee 3y ago
  Are they not referring to the default price which is available to all? Adding all those situational discounts is not a fair comparison since it requires a very specific set of circumstances to achieve it.
  - zmk5 3y ago
    Yeah I was just referring to default prices. The only one I modified was the comparison to the Overkill system because the base Apple configuration does not have 32GB of RAM and 1TB SSD.
  - trashcanman 3y ago
    Ok, but that same spec is 1699 plus tax direct from Apple without a discount so the same as frameworks pre built 16 inch option that ships in Q4. If you compare their “build it yourself and bring your own OS” version without memory or storage shipping in late Q4 the base MBA 15 +70W charger w/o discount is still $100 cheaper, shipping now and very likely will outperform w double the battery life
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  Why compare it to a smaller computer with no expandability with pricing that is unavailable to a huge majority of consumers?
  - trashcanman 3y ago
    Apple doesn’t verify that purchases from the educational store are from students it’s honor system. Those prices are available to everyone, in small quantities. Sit the 15 inch MBA next to the 16 inch MBP and the screens look identical. Performance wise the M2 w unified memory crushes X86 systems across the benchmarks at half the power budget.
    - onlypositive 3y ago
      Ah yes, let me tell HR about this neat trick.
    - canuckintime 3y ago
      > Sit the 15 inch MBA next to the 16 inch MBP and the screens look identical. No, they do not.
- Rebelgecko 3y ago
  What's the comparison look like with 2TB of storage? And maybe a bit more RAM (I don't think MBAs let you upgrade after purchase so buying a 512GB machine seems shortsighted for a lot of use cases unless all your development is in the cloud)
  - trashcanman 3y ago
    The storage and memory upgrades are expensive and also have a penalty in terms of power. Memory draws the same current regardless of if it’s being used and that is significant. Unified memory is also very different, has much higher bandwidth than RAM and lower latency. You can’t compare unified memory with RAM. As far as the SSD, the base option comes with one 256GB NAND flash IC, where if you upgrade to 512GB they have to add a second. That matters because adding a second means you double the IO bandwidth using their current design. It’s something like 3500 vs 7500 MB/s. If you add more NAND modules you also scale up the IO speed further but the difference between 3500 and 7500 is significant for all workloads where above that you probably won’t see a gain except in niche applications like video editing, assuming you have the complimentary processing power and unified memory to utilize that throughput. For storage, Apple provides 2TB cloud service for $10/mo and these have wifi 6E so it’s cheaper to use the cloud than buy the storage, assuming it’s not working storage, and safer too. Also, upgrades on Apple products hold their market value very poorly. The M2 studio just came out and maxed out M1 units are on sale NIB at 1/4 price of retail from 3 months ago, which is not at all a true quantification of performance since the M2 is only what 15-20% faster. So after quite some research for the MBA 15; 16GB + 512GB + 70W adapter is the optimum for power draw, performance, cost and value preservation. Overall, it seems the best value strategy with Apple products is to take the first upgrade for memory and storage and leave it at that. You can then resell every year and recoup 60% and upgrade to the latest w a new battery. Apple is actually very cheap after the first investment considering the productivity and time saving benefits, and you can’t steal an Apple device. Just don’t drop it Also if you are considering big upgrades, compare the cost to just buying two base units as the base units are way closer to the manufacturing cost. Often there is more benefit to having two expendable units and they will hold their resale value better.
    - 3y ago
- senknvd 3y ago
  The M2 can't match the 7840HS in CPU performance though[1]. It's half as fast in multi-core benchmarks and a bit slower in single-core. [1]: https://www.notebookcheck.net/M2-vs-R7-7840HS_14521_14948.247596.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/M2-vs-R7-7840HS_14521_14948.24...
  - trashcanman 3y ago
    Yes but the AMD design draws double the power even though it was fabbed on a lower process node. I mean it defeats the purpose of a portable. Now you need double the battery weight or lose half the runtime. No, the M2 still wins. If processing is the goal at the expense of portability then you can buy a nice 64 core EPYC system for $1700
    - lifeformed 3y ago
      The battery life is still fine. Plugging in once in a while isn't a huge deal. I'd rather save time compiling than not having to plug in once every 8 hours.
    - sudosysgen 3y ago
      Double the power for double the performance indicates you can use a different scheduler if you don't need performance. Also, the CPU isn't the only powerdraw in a system, in my use the screen alone averages more power draw.
washadjeffmad 3y ago
Not being snarky or anything, but do you have easy access to broadband internet where you are, or do you live in a locale that prohibits VPN? It turned out more effective for me to buy a Chromebook and build a remote workstation to do actual work from, with the added benefit that I don't care if my Chromebook is lost or stolen because it doesn't store any data and costs less than a screen replacement (<$179). I also wasn't impressed by the highly externalized "there's an adapter for that" dongle-shuffle for basic ports when Apple did it 2017, and if I wanted to bring it all with me, I'd still need to buy and lug around a eGPU if I wanted to do any compute. Plus I get like 14 hours of full-brightness work time off of one charge, similar to an M1 MacBook Air. That's just my use case, of course. I've also built an SFF system with eDP when I have to travel and generate a lot of data and an Alienware m17 isn't enough.
- kibwen 3y ago
  Remoting into a beefy workstation works for plenty of command-line tasks, but is going to yield a subpar experience for GUI tasks. As someone whose daily driver for several lean years was a $180 netbook (remember netbooks?), anything that I could do on my remote machine was grand (at the time, a $5 VPS), and anything that I had to do locally was a slog. > "there's an adapter for that" dongle-shuffle > lug around a eGPU One of the unique selling points of the Framework is that you can customize the ports to your needs, so dongles are unnecessary unless you need a whole lot of ports. And the Framework 16 doesn't need an eGPU, you can plug in an actual GPU that integrates with the body of the laptop.
- zmk5 3y ago
  No worries habibi. Your post isn't snarky and I get where you are coming from with what you wrote. I was more commenting on my expectations of the price given that this is a (relatively) new company on a larger form factor that has a lot of interchangeable parts, external GPU, etc. This laptop isn't personally for me but I can see why people would like it. Also my workflow requires a lot of GUI applications for simulating and visualizing robotic movement and that is incredibly hard with ChromeOS or macOS.
- senknvd 3y ago
  Which Chromebook did you go with? And what tools (IDEs, debuggers, etc.) do you use for development?

yellow_lead 3y ago

Their servers are overloaded [1] [1] https://twitter.com/FrameworkPuter/status/1681322206624882688 https://twitter.com/FrameworkPuter/status/168132220662488268... Not to create FOMO, but I would expect these to go quickly then.

Deukhoofd 3y ago
Apparently the first batch is sold out already, so yes, it's definitely going quickly
- nrp 3y ago
  This is both the most server load we've ever seen and the fastest order throughput we've seen. It is genuinely difficult to gauge ahead of time.
  - Shawnj2 3y ago
    Good call to offer a pre order, that should make it easy to deliver them

anarcat 3y ago

dupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36773107 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36773107

neilv 3y ago

If they get a keyboard option with proper TrackPoint (including the design and positioning of the buttons), they can convert some ThinkPad devotees.

Pet_Ant 3y ago
I'd personally love to see an ortholinear layout option. I cannot go back after my Moonlander (like serious, I lost the ability to touch type on staggered). (Assuming they don't, won't load for me)
- nrp 3y ago
  We've been working with Jack at OLKB on figuring out how to enable additional keyboard layout types. Since there is a broad range of different layout preferences, our goal is to make it easy for third party keyboard makers (like OLKB) to be able to create their own compatible keyboard modules.
happy-dude 3y ago
System76's next flagship, "Virgo," will be in-house designed and has a trackpoint keyboard with a layout will be similar to their line of Launch keyboards [1]. They've been teasing their Virgo prototype [2] [3] [4] on their social media feeds. [1] https://system76.com/accessories/launch https://system76.com/accessories/launch [2] https://fosstodon.org/@carlrichell/110571781656976874 https://fosstodon.org/@carlrichell/110571781656976874 [3] https://fosstodon.org/@soller/110442466523846236 https://fosstodon.org/@soller/110442466523846236 [4] https://fosstodon.org/@carlrichell/110435594412453909 https://fosstodon.org/@carlrichell/110435594412453909
- neilv 3y ago
  This is exciting. Execution is everything, including the buttons. Someone designing this might also want to look at the Trackpoint buttons from before Lenovo switched to flat keyboards, and see the tactile merits of that (even when combined with flat keyboards).

theshrike79 3y ago

...and still not available in the Nordics. I'm still waiting here, money in hand, Framework. Could you please let me give it to you? (Directly, I don't want to use a dropshipping middleman)

stavros 3y ago
I don't understand why they ship to Germany and not in all of the EU. Surely it's as easy as telling the courier to take it a bit farther? Maybe it's related to VAT? I can't imagine that their payment processor won't handle that for them, though.
- theshrike79 3y ago
  If they pay the VAT to any EU country, they don’t need to pay it again. I often order stuff from Germany because their VAT for computer stuff is lower than here.
  - akvadrako 3y ago
    You need to charge the VAT of where the consumer lives. But it's a trivial thing; you just use a service for it.

sylens 3y ago

I think the missing piece here would be the desktop version of Steam OS. All the other components are in place for a stellar gaming laptop

wilsonnb3 3y ago
You can install steamOS on it if you want, it is just a Linux distro like any other. Not sure why you would want to though, there are plenty of good Linux distros available and Windows is a much better choice for gaming if you don't need handheld specific features.
- stavros 3y ago
  Nowadays I can play the vast majority on my games on Linux. It supports even more games than the Mac.
- sylens 3y ago
  I know you can install the initial versions of SteamOS on it, but as far as I know, SteamOS 3 (the version powering the Steam Deck) has not been officially released for desktop use. My dream is a gaming laptop with the same type of suspend/resume capability that the Steam Deck has

xkcd-sucks 3y ago

Is S3 idle / suspend to RAM supported on this? Will buy it in a heartbeat if yes

nrp 3y ago
Neither Intel nor AMD officially support S3 on their recent CPU generations. Unofficially, S3 functionality has continued to degrade over time. On the positive side though, s0ix continues to improve for both Intel and AMD.
akvadrako 3y ago
You don't need it. On the past couple laptops I've owned (Lenovo and ASUS), S3 and Modern Standby use the same amount of power.

mustaflex 3y ago

still can't order from Belgium, a bummer.

mschild 3y ago

Maybe someone from framework or knowledge of this area can explain this, but I'm a bit baffled by the price difference between the prebuilt and DIY editions. LinusTechTips recently did a tour of one of the assembly stations in Taiwan. The DIY editions are fully assembled, tested, then disassembled, and put into packages. Considering that DIY has an additional labour intensive step, how come they're so much cheaper? Shouldn't the prebuilt ones be cheaper because they have less labour involved? https://youtu.be/7nXVJBGowmY&t=10m33s https://youtu.be/7nXVJBGowmY&t=10m33s

nrp 3y ago
The DIY Edition price is without memory, storage, and operating system, which are included in the pre-built versions. The memory, storage, bezel, and Input Cover that are temporarily installed into DIY Edition systems get cycled back through the line at the factory and reused repeatedly. If you order memory and storage as part of a DIY Edition configuration, those are new modules specific to your order that get added to the package at our fulfillment center. This means that we can enable thousands of different orderable DIY Edition configurations while only having a handful of unique configurations leaving the factory.
aidenn0 3y ago
DIY comes with no RAM, storage, or OS.
anonymous_sorry 3y ago
I configured a DIY edition with essentially the same specs as the pre-built version. The price differential was pretty close to the cost of the windows licence (which I don't need).
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Thoeu388 3y ago

> The back two slots on each side can take up to 240W power input over USB-C using USB-PD 3.1. I would like an option for normal barrel jack power connector. I found USB-C power delivery very unreliable and not universal. For many applications (Pi4, Rock5) you are limited to original makers power adapter. Framework in this case is using very new PD spec to deliver 180W, so I assume it will be the same. There is also power renegotiation, when voltage drops to zero for couple of seconds. This board is also supposed to operate without batteries! With barrel plug I just need to know diameter and voltage. I already have many adapters, or power sources. Much easier to operate. All minipcs (minisforum, beeling) come with barrel plug and USB PD.

nrp 3y ago
We're using the USB-PD 3.1 standard and are testing for compatibility. We haven't seen issues when testing with other compliant USB-PD 3.1 adapters.
- Thoeu388 3y ago
  Latter please provide list of adapters, that are tested with your product. Some mid-range stuff like Anker. It may save you many headaches on support.
syntaxing 3y ago
I strongly disagree with this. I purposely do not buy anything that’s not USB-C or lightning because I like being able to bring one charger for everything. Do you have older version of the RPi4? They accidentally made the USB-C non compliant but was fixed in late 2018, early 2019. Overall, as long as you have a 100W USB-C cable, you can practically charge anything (minus the now 240W standard).
- aidenn0 3y ago
  I'm fine with either. The big advantage of the old way is if you have something approximately the right voltage (and sufficient wattage) all you need is a $0.25 barrel connector to charge. I damaged the power brick for my laptop once and ran it off of a bench supply with the original DC cable while I was waiting for the replacement to arrive in the mail. With USB-C PD, If you live sufficiently close to a Best Buy (or similar) you can usually just get the USB PD brick with the most listed versions supported and have it work "good enough" but I have definitely seen laptops/PD brick combinations that negotiate rather low power.

zapdrive 3y ago

Have they fixed the ridiculous sticking out ethernet port?

kibwen 3y ago
If you mean the optional ethernet port module, no, because 1) foldable ports are more fragile, expensive, and patented, and 2) if there's demand for it, anybody can manufacture an alternative ethernet module with a folding port, which is the point of being modular.

syntaxing 3y ago

How are the trackpads on these? The trackpad on the MacBook is probably one of the main reasons I can’t go back to another laptop.

Rebelgecko 3y ago
On previous generations I think it's decent. The main annoyances are that when I touch the glass a certain way I can feel a scratch or divot, and the pressure it takes to click varies based on where you click. Overall I think the hardware is great, my complaints are mostly with software/firmware/BIOS. My biggest complaints are with battery life, especially during standby. Framework has been working on a fix since 2022 but no dice so far. -Sent from my Framework laptop at maximum brightness because the brightness keys don't work unless I disable other sensors on the laptop
- syntaxing 3y ago
  Battery life is probably my biggest reservation. The fact the MBP/MBA has 20 hrs of USAGE is unbeatable still. How is the power suspend? I had huge issues with Linux laptops, if I left it unplugged, the battery would drain 10% a day where it seems like a couple % on MacOS
  - Rebelgecko 3y ago
    Similar... I lose about 10%/day when the laptop is asleep. Some flavors of Linux easily transition to hibernate (which has much lower drain) if the laptop is asleep for a while, but I haven't gotten that to work in Fedora.
wildrhythms 3y ago
I have a M1 Macbook Air and a Framework 13, and the trackpad is objectively worse on the Framework. A little mushy, a little inconsistent in the click pressure needed across the surface, palm rejection is still an unsolved problem it seems, and I haven't found a Linux DE that can do three-finger drag and other gestures as naturally as the Macbook has been doing it for over a decade. :/ I hardly ever use the thing now because it's slower and hotter than the Air, blasting fans with a single Twitch stream running in the background, and about the same price too.

smusamashah 3y ago

I was looking for pre-orders to open expecting there will be an Nvidia GPU option too (for gaming + stable diffusion image generation etc). This has AMD Processor with integrated graphics only. I have never used a computer with AMD processors, will it be able to use Nvidia GPU later at all?

CarVac 3y ago
It has an option for a discrete AMD GPU. No word on other vendors' GPUs—yet.
- smusamashah 3y ago
  Updated my comment after reading the post more closely. It does mean that it can get nvidia GPU in future right?
  - p_j_w 3y ago
    Framework has made no such promise, but I can’t imagine they’re not interested in making that happen.
therapee 3y ago
Configure > Expansion Bay System There's an AMD Radeon™ RX 7700S GPU available for 400$. The Verge article implied that they'd be releasing new GPUs in the future, as well. (emphasis on implied - it's not a certainty.)
ploxiln 3y ago
It has a dedicated AMD GPU option. That should work quite well for gaming. For CUDA ML stuff, it won't, as you suspect. (Will an Nvidia GPU come later, theoretically it could, but Nvidia is probably less willing to work with Framework ...)
- smusamashah 3y ago
  Does it mean a thirdparty nvidia vendor like MSI etc can make one for framework though?

stavros 3y ago

Has anyone seen any benchmarks for these new AMD processors that show power per watt? I have the previous generation Intel processor, but it gets too hot too easily, and I'm thinking of upgrading to the new motherboard.

senknvd 3y ago
According to Notebookcheck[1], if you put a power limit on the 7940HS, it will achieve 15625 points on Cinebench multicore with an average of 66 watts. This puts it above the M2 Max in efficiency and right behind the M2 Pro. Far ahead of any Intel chip. If you don't want to mess with software power limiting, you'll have to wait for benchmarks of the 7840U. [1]: https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-9-7940HS-analysis-Zen4-Phoenix-is-ideally-as-efficient-as-Apple.713395.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-9-7940HS-analysis-Ze...
- stavros 3y ago
  Hmm, that's really interesting. I guess I'd need to software limit, but still, that should mean I can get good performance and low battery usage, plus low fan usage. I might have to upgrade, the Intel processor I have right now is very annoying. What's the difference between the HS and the U? I'm not good at specs :/

therapee 3y ago

Word for those who'd like to pre-order as well - Create your account _before_ ordering. Perhaps this was just a one-off issue I had, but I tried setting up an account whilst ordering, as the website suggested, and it erred, charging my card but not sending me any receipt or creating any account, AFAICT. It may be that it's just a fluke, but you may as well be cautious. (from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36773107 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36773107, a duplicate submission)

sezycei 3y ago
I had this exact same experience. Highly recommend following the above advice.

anotherhue 3y ago

Question for those of you that use a similar form-factor laptop: Can you really use it without a desk?

ben-schaaf 3y ago
It's the same width as the 15" I use on my lap in the train every day. Wouldn't want something smaller personally.
thomastjeffery 3y ago
You can get a centered (no numpad) keyboard, and it has a second fan for the GPU; so I expect it would be quite comfortable. The only issue left is weight (4.6-5.3lbs), which seems to be the heavier side of average.

seanhunter 3y ago

Congrats to the framework team. This looks really awesome. I am looking to get one for sure. In particular I was extremely excited by the fact that Jack Humbert[1] is prototyping an ortholinear keyboard module[2]. I have 3 plancks and 1 prionic. Love me some Humbert keyboards, and it's an absolute dream to have an ortholinear keyboard on a laptop. [1] https://olkb.com/ https://olkb.com/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35280168 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35280168

yndoendo 3y ago

According to the specs. The keyboard is running QMK on a RP2040. Does anyone know if this will be programmable like quality mechanical keyboards? One thing missing from all high-end laptops is the ability to program the key mapping at firmware level so one does not have to re-configure the OS. Caps lock is such a useless and easily accessible key.

nrp 3y ago
Yes, you can use QMK tools like VIA to reconfigure, or even just modify the firmware. It's all open source: https://github.com/frameworkcomputer/qmk_firmware https://github.com/frameworkcomputer/qmk_firmware
seanhunter 3y ago
qmk keyboard firmware is awesome. You can do some incredible things involving toggling different layers, chords, different mappings if you hold vs tap a key, macros, all kinds of stuff. For an example of a qmk feature (that I don't actually use in my maps but it gives you an idea of the art of the possible) there is the "Space cadet shift" https://docs.qmk.fm/#/feature_space_cadet https://docs.qmk.fm/#/feature_space_cadet

ThinkBeat 3y ago

What is the interface bus for the external GPU? USB4?

nrp 3y ago
PCIe 4 x8. We have documentation around it here: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay

pentagrama 3y ago

Someone knows why they jump from Framework Laptop 13 to 16? And how this product naming will evolve?

NoboruWataya 3y ago
It's size, not generation. The Framework 16 is 16"
nrp 3y ago
The number reflects the screen size (rounded down). Framework Laptop 13 is 13.5". Framework Laptop 16 is 16". Both product lines are continuing in parallel.
- pentagrama 3y ago
  Thank you

dogma1138 3y ago

No high core count Intel and NVIDIA GPU option?

payzero 3y ago

How is the battery life though, I heard it was pretty bad early on. That might have been for Linux or Windows specifically, I honestly cannot remember. Any insights would be appreciated.

lousken 3y ago

No reshippers? Why? Are there any checks in place or? Also I can't even select anything else besides USA

galkk 3y ago

Great thing that I probably won’t buy unless my thinkpad x1 extreme 1st gen will die. Picture wise the bezel on monitor is horribly large, and there were comments about chance of module with columnar layout on keyboard that didn’t materialize :(

7e 3y ago

You can upgrade each individual component, except that all the components are low volume bespoke, so you'd save more money upgrading all of them at once by buying a new laptop and selling your old one. In which case, you get a more integrated, lighter solution. And you can't upgrade the screen. Pass. I'm not so poor that I'm eating cat food and rummaging through trash for aluminum cans. I'm not the target market for this laptop.