4 ms·

I pay every day for roads, infrastructure, pollution, traffic deaths, etc. even though I don't drive. How is that fair?

by fnimick 3y ago

eppp 3y ago
You also receive goods that are subsidized by the use of those roads.
- madsbuch 3y ago
  not by the car users.
GenerocUsername 3y ago
Oh so you buy gas and pay the crazy gas taxes even though you don't have a car?
- fnimick 3y ago
  "crazy gas taxes" - you mean the taxes that don't even come close to paying for roads, let alone all the other negative externalities of driving? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbEuaCCV-zg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbEuaCCV-zg
Brendinooo 3y ago
Yup! And PA Turnpike drivers pay every day for buses in Philadelphia (or Pittsburgh, whichever is more distant to make the point) that they'll never ride. But at least we have a status quo where both systems are subsidized, and both systems require you to buy in to use them. Why let one group go for free?
- fnimick 3y ago
  > PA Turnpike drivers pay every day for buses They do? The tolls on the pike don't even cover the maintenance on the road. It's the general tax fund, paid into as well by non-drivers, that makes up the difference.
  - Brendinooo 3y ago
    https://www.paturnpike.com/about-us/investor-relations/act-44-plan https://www.paturnpike.com/about-us/investor-relations/act-4... Between 2007 and 2022 they had to pay $450 million a year to fund non-turnpike things, including transit. Between 2013 and 2022 all of that money went to transit. The obligation has since been reduced to $50 million.
jonhohle 3y ago
In Arizona, 75% of transportation infrastructure comes from licensing, vehicle registration, gas taxes and other miscellaneous income directly related to road use. Does everyone not using those services derive ⅓ the benefit of those that do? You certainly travel on roads and/or use food and services that do? I’d be completely fine if 100% of transportations budget came from fees directly related to use (increase gas or mileage taxes and decrease income or property taxes). For most people it would probably be net zero, and for those that save on taxes the increased cost to businesses would be passed on to customers in increased prices.
- fnimick 3y ago
  And you can't make the same broad benefit argument for public transit? Rip out the MTA or the El and see how state finances do when all that economic activity in the city center grinds to a halt. Not to mention that there are more costs to driving than just the physical road - there's the opportunity cost of lost land, injuries, deaths, health effects from exposure to exhaust, climate change....
- r00fus 3y ago
  What about federal funding? USG covers a huge amount of costs in road maintenance. State funding of roads doesn't nearly cover the overall costs of the freeways. The $52.5 billion in apportioned funding for Fiscal Year 2022 represents an increase of more than 20% as compared to Fiscal Year 2021 for Federal-aid Highway Program US Taxpayers cover this. [1] https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/fhwa-delivers-largest-federal-highway-apportionment-decades-part-bipartisan#:~:text=The%20%2452.5%20billion%20in%20apportioned,Federal%2Daid%20Highway%20Program%20apportionments https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/fhwa-delivers-l....
  - Brendinooo 3y ago
    Looks like transit gets "$18 billion annually for public transportation programs from 2022 to 2026", good for 31% of its capital expenses and 8% of its operating expenses. https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57940 https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57940 So it gets federal dollars too. And things like roads and bridges are also subsidizing transit because buses will use them too.

I pay every day for roads, infrastructure, pollution, traffic deaths, etc. even though I don't drive. How is that fair?

eppp 3y ago

You also receive goods that are subsidized by the use of those roads.

madsbuch 3y ago
not by the car users.

GenerocUsername 3y ago

Oh so you buy gas and pay the crazy gas taxes even though you don't have a car?

fnimick 3y ago
"crazy gas taxes" - you mean the taxes that don't even come close to paying for roads, let alone all the other negative externalities of driving? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbEuaCCV-zg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbEuaCCV-zg

Brendinooo 3y ago

Yup! And PA Turnpike drivers pay every day for buses in Philadelphia (or Pittsburgh, whichever is more distant to make the point) that they'll never ride. But at least we have a status quo where both systems are subsidized, and both systems require you to buy in to use them. Why let one group go for free?

fnimick 3y ago
> PA Turnpike drivers pay every day for buses They do? The tolls on the pike don't even cover the maintenance on the road. It's the general tax fund, paid into as well by non-drivers, that makes up the difference.
- Brendinooo 3y ago
  https://www.paturnpike.com/about-us/investor-relations/act-44-plan https://www.paturnpike.com/about-us/investor-relations/act-4... Between 2007 and 2022 they had to pay $450 million a year to fund non-turnpike things, including transit. Between 2013 and 2022 all of that money went to transit. The obligation has since been reduced to $50 million.

jonhohle 3y ago

In Arizona, 75% of transportation infrastructure comes from licensing, vehicle registration, gas taxes and other miscellaneous income directly related to road use. Does everyone not using those services derive ⅓ the benefit of those that do? You certainly travel on roads and/or use food and services that do? I’d be completely fine if 100% of transportations budget came from fees directly related to use (increase gas or mileage taxes and decrease income or property taxes). For most people it would probably be net zero, and for those that save on taxes the increased cost to businesses would be passed on to customers in increased prices.

fnimick 3y ago
And you can't make the same broad benefit argument for public transit? Rip out the MTA or the El and see how state finances do when all that economic activity in the city center grinds to a halt. Not to mention that there are more costs to driving than just the physical road - there's the opportunity cost of lost land, injuries, deaths, health effects from exposure to exhaust, climate change....
r00fus 3y ago
What about federal funding? USG covers a huge amount of costs in road maintenance. State funding of roads doesn't nearly cover the overall costs of the freeways. The $52.5 billion in apportioned funding for Fiscal Year 2022 represents an increase of more than 20% as compared to Fiscal Year 2021 for Federal-aid Highway Program US Taxpayers cover this. [1] https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/fhwa-delivers-largest-federal-highway-apportionment-decades-part-bipartisan#:~:text=The%20%2452.5%20billion%20in%20apportioned,Federal%2Daid%20Highway%20Program%20apportionments https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/fhwa-delivers-l....
- Brendinooo 3y ago
  Looks like transit gets "$18 billion annually for public transportation programs from 2022 to 2026", good for 31% of its capital expenses and 8% of its operating expenses. https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57940 https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57940 So it gets federal dollars too. And things like roads and bridges are also subsidizing transit because buses will use them too.