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Sad to see them go, I liked their design very much. I wasn't in the market for an e-bike yet, but I would have considered a VanMoof. However: >they can end up

by iSnow 3y ago

Sad to see them go, I liked their design very much. I wasn't in the market for an e-bike yet, but I would have considered a VanMoof. However: >they can end up bricked in their basic state, since their working is tied closely to the use of the VanMoof app, and the VanMoof app will not continue to be supported. This is not the future I signed up for. Even if someone hacked around their electronic locking now, that's just not a state of affairs that should be accepted. That is a version of "you'll own nothing" where I decidedly would be unhappy considering the price of their bike.

lm28469 3y ago
The app is the least of your problem, you won't find parts for maintenance because a lot of them are custom.
- veidr 3y ago
  This is true, but I mean, it's a bicycle. The maintenance in 4 years of daily-driving my VanMoof X2 has been some grease, and new brake pads. But as somebody else said in this thread, the battery is another matter. Once that goes, that's probably the end of its useful life as a commuter bike. I thought about getting an extra battery now while I still can, but I (like, I suspect, most people buying these rather pricey bikes) probably don't plan to stick with e-bike tech that is 5+ years old. Since 2008, my 2019 VanMoof is my 4th ebike. And man is each generation hugely better than the last. These ebikes basically improving at a similar rate as iPhones, and it's pretty great.
  - achikin 3y ago
    I’ve heard that the biggest complaint is the automatic gear shifter which broke quite frequently.
    - veidr 3y ago
      Oof, yeah, it would definitely suck if that broke, and couldn't be replaced.
  - lm28469 3y ago
    4 years is nothing tho, things starts breaking after 5, 10, 15 years this thing will be in an open air dump in Africa by then > improving at a similar rate as iPhones, and it's pretty great. idk what's great about that, what's greatly increased is waste, that's for sure. Everything is becoming increasingly more closed sourced and short lived
bookofjoe 3y ago
The test of whether you own something is, can you sell it? If not — like movies and music you "bought" from Apple/Amazon etc. — you DON'T own them but rather rent.
- iSnow 3y ago
  I can live with a couple of songs no longer being downloadable and not resellable. I have my music "purchases" locally and can move them to a new device, back them up, etc. But with a 4k EUR bike getting bricked, I'd be very unhappy.
alias_neo 3y ago
This is probably a controversial opinion with those who've splashed out on one of them, but they essentially signed up for this to be e-waste as soon as it was no longer supported. They might argue that the hardware is still perfectly capable, and I would agree, but this happens in other industries too, mobile phones, Sonos speakers, Wifi routers, and all sorts of other tech. Anyone who buys anything that relies on the manufacturer's services to maintain the devices functionality signed up for this, whether they knew it or not. In the home automation scene, many go out of their way to avoid devices with cloud services, or opt for devices with robust local APIs; those APIs may be removed at a later date, there is a real risk (See Google + Nest), but that's a risk they take. I hope VanMoof, if necessary, will open up the local API, and given the money potentially available from owners, someone comes along and provides a suitable service, for a sustainable fee, which I assume buyers can afford, to maintain the functionality, and not relegate all of these bikes to the rubbish dump.
veidr 3y ago
Rival ebike maker Cowboy is making an app[0] that supports some VanMoof bikes and they say it will support more models in future. Meanwhile, you can download your bike's encryption key and passcode from this other website[1]. It appears likely that as long as you have this info, third-party apps like Cowboy's or others will be able to work. But getting the info relies on VanMoof's servers being up, so if you have a VanMoof bike I recommend downloading yours ASAP just in case. FWIW, I have been using a VanMoof Electrified X2 in Tokyo for about 4 years. Great bike, but glitchy software. The bike plays sound effects like "unlock" at random inappropriate time, and the app on the phone frequently displays useless/incomprehensible alerts. But one of the good things about VanMoof is that they have an API that already somewhat supported third party apps, like this one[3]. So I think as long as you save your bike's encryption key and passcode, you're good. I don't think your bike will be bricked after that. (But it could be otherwise, because those details are needed for a non-VanMoof app to control the bike, and if VanMoof disappears AFAIK there is no way to get them after that.) [0]: https://bikey-app.cowboy.bike https://bikey-app.cowboy.bike [1]: https://keyexporter.grossartig.io https://keyexporter.grossartig.io [2] https://moofer.app https://moofer.app
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  > Meanwhile, you can download your bike's encryption key and passcode from this other website I can't help but get "drink a verification can" vibes from that. At least they're making them available to people.
- yabatopia 3y ago
  > Rival ebike maker Cowboy is making an app[0] that supports some VanMoof bikes and they say it will support more models in future. That future can be very short. Cowboy is like Vanmoofs twin: proprietary parts, ridiculously VC funded, mountains of debt, more losses than revenue, no realistic path towards profitability, ... All that in a ebike boom decade. It's another bankruptcy waiting to happen.
  - veidr 3y ago
    Sounds plausible; their bikes look very similar to VanMoof, are priced in the same range, and have similar long delivery times. My point was just that there are alternative apps for VanMoof bikes. But maybe there is a more interesting point here. Maybe these Apple-esque ebikes designs that prize looking pretty and over repairability/interoperability have seen their moment pass?

by iSnow 3y ago

lm28469 3y ago

The app is the least of your problem, you won't find parts for maintenance because a lot of them are custom.

veidr 3y ago
This is true, but I mean, it's a bicycle. The maintenance in 4 years of daily-driving my VanMoof X2 has been some grease, and new brake pads. But as somebody else said in this thread, the battery is another matter. Once that goes, that's probably the end of its useful life as a commuter bike. I thought about getting an extra battery now while I still can, but I (like, I suspect, most people buying these rather pricey bikes) probably don't plan to stick with e-bike tech that is 5+ years old. Since 2008, my 2019 VanMoof is my 4th ebike. And man is each generation hugely better than the last. These ebikes basically improving at a similar rate as iPhones, and it's pretty great.
- achikin 3y ago
  I’ve heard that the biggest complaint is the automatic gear shifter which broke quite frequently.
  - veidr 3y ago
    Oof, yeah, it would definitely suck if that broke, and couldn't be replaced.
- lm28469 3y ago
  4 years is nothing tho, things starts breaking after 5, 10, 15 years this thing will be in an open air dump in Africa by then > improving at a similar rate as iPhones, and it's pretty great. idk what's great about that, what's greatly increased is waste, that's for sure. Everything is becoming increasingly more closed sourced and short lived

bookofjoe 3y ago

The test of whether you own something is, can you sell it? If not — like movies and music you "bought" from Apple/Amazon etc. — you DON'T own them but rather rent.

iSnow 3y ago
I can live with a couple of songs no longer being downloadable and not resellable. I have my music "purchases" locally and can move them to a new device, back them up, etc. But with a 4k EUR bike getting bricked, I'd be very unhappy.

alias_neo 3y ago

This is probably a controversial opinion with those who've splashed out on one of them, but they essentially signed up for this to be e-waste as soon as it was no longer supported. They might argue that the hardware is still perfectly capable, and I would agree, but this happens in other industries too, mobile phones, Sonos speakers, Wifi routers, and all sorts of other tech. Anyone who buys anything that relies on the manufacturer's services to maintain the devices functionality signed up for this, whether they knew it or not. In the home automation scene, many go out of their way to avoid devices with cloud services, or opt for devices with robust local APIs; those APIs may be removed at a later date, there is a real risk (See Google + Nest), but that's a risk they take. I hope VanMoof, if necessary, will open up the local API, and given the money potentially available from owners, someone comes along and provides a suitable service, for a sustainable fee, which I assume buyers can afford, to maintain the functionality, and not relegate all of these bikes to the rubbish dump.

veidr 3y ago

Rival ebike maker Cowboy is making an app[0] that supports some VanMoof bikes and they say it will support more models in future. Meanwhile, you can download your bike's encryption key and passcode from this other website[1]. It appears likely that as long as you have this info, third-party apps like Cowboy's or others will be able to work. But getting the info relies on VanMoof's servers being up, so if you have a VanMoof bike I recommend downloading yours ASAP just in case. FWIW, I have been using a VanMoof Electrified X2 in Tokyo for about 4 years. Great bike, but glitchy software. The bike plays sound effects like "unlock" at random inappropriate time, and the app on the phone frequently displays useless/incomprehensible alerts. But one of the good things about VanMoof is that they have an API that already somewhat supported third party apps, like this one[3]. So I think as long as you save your bike's encryption key and passcode, you're good. I don't think your bike will be bricked after that. (But it could be otherwise, because those details are needed for a non-VanMoof app to control the bike, and if VanMoof disappears AFAIK there is no way to get them after that.) [0]: https://bikey-app.cowboy.bike https://bikey-app.cowboy.bike [1]: https://keyexporter.grossartig.io https://keyexporter.grossartig.io [2] https://moofer.app https://moofer.app

hotpotamus 3y ago
> Meanwhile, you can download your bike's encryption key and passcode from this other website I can't help but get "drink a verification can" vibes from that. At least they're making them available to people.
yabatopia 3y ago
> Rival ebike maker Cowboy is making an app[0] that supports some VanMoof bikes and they say it will support more models in future. That future can be very short. Cowboy is like Vanmoofs twin: proprietary parts, ridiculously VC funded, mountains of debt, more losses than revenue, no realistic path towards profitability, ... All that in a ebike boom decade. It's another bankruptcy waiting to happen.
- veidr 3y ago
  Sounds plausible; their bikes look very similar to VanMoof, are priced in the same range, and have similar long delivery times. My point was just that there are alternative apps for VanMoof bikes. But maybe there is a more interesting point here. Maybe these Apple-esque ebikes designs that prize looking pretty and over repairability/interoperability have seen their moment pass?