4 ms·

Not a coincidence. It's significantly more common in the profession[0]. They get divorced at a higher rate, and they recommend divorce to their clients. Therapi

by ctrlp 3y ago

Not a coincidence. It's significantly more common in the profession[0]. They get divorced at a higher rate, and they recommend divorce to their clients. Therapists and psychiatrists are massively responsible for the divorce rates among boomers (the first widespread consumers of these services). Their children apparently learned nothing and are rushing headlong into the same therapy-culture that destroyed so many of their parents' marriages. [0] https://doi.org/10.1007/s11896-009-9057-8 https://doi.org/10.1007/s11896-009-9057-8

weregiraffe 3y ago
You are saying it like divorce is a bad thing.
- ctrlp 3y ago
  Yeah, ok, it's just something to joke about. Nothing's serious. Nothing matters.
  - alphager 3y ago
    Divorce is not the worst outcome of a marriage. Wasting your life in an unhappy marriage and developing lifelong resentments is way worse.
    - ctrlp 3y ago
      There are lots of bad outcomes in a marriage, but many marriages aren't given much of a chance.Anyone who has been successfully married after decades can tell you that it's ups and downs and takes work and there are many moments when you might want to give up. This culture encourages people to cut bait when things aren't fulfilling the spouse. But that's just more of the same individualistic attitudes that Psychodynamics helped create support for. When you enter into a marriage you are less an individual, when you have children, you are even less an individual. It shouldn't be so easy to divorce and there shouldn't be a whole industry that tries to make it easier. This idea that you can detach from your commits to family because you're "unhappy" is insidious and has too many perverse incentives to list here. Predatory industries like therapy are particularly distasteful because they clothe themselves in virtue when they are actually extreme toxic to the culture at large. That culture, if allowed to be healthy, would obviate the perceived need for most therapy (outside of seriously disordered people). Such needs would be supplied by extended family and friends.
- ulizzle 3y ago
  IRL, divorce is devastating for everyone involved, especially the children. I believe therapists diagnose divorce and breakups in general so often because it eases their conscience a bit. You can see this same reasoning with abortion and such topics. A divorced therapist is like a dentist with bad teeth or a tee-totaling drug-dealer. Can't trust any of 'em.
  - fortuna86 3y ago
    [dead]
  - WJW 3y ago
    Staying together when you hate each other is much worse. Sometimes divorce is just the best out of several bad options. (BTW, what is bad about teetotaling for a drug dealer? "Don't get high on your own supply" has allegedly been a credo for them since basically forever)
    - ulizzle 3y ago
      Hating each offer to the point of violence? Sure. But that’s now his this works IRL. That’s why there is the common movie trope of the wife leaving her husband gif the therapist. People divorce cus they “fall out of love” and, since society today puts self-interest, especially if its related to sex, above all else, and the nuclear family is seen as worthless and “problematic”, people ignore any evidence against their politically correct sheepish opinions. On your second question, drug dealers often start dealing to support their habit. Only in movies will you get that line. Y’all live such incredibly sheltered lives. Stay together for the kids. Once they leave the nest, sleep with all the therapists you want. But to pretend like divorce is anything but cringe and pathetic is twice as cringe.
- zo1 3y ago
  It isn't bad if you are in an objectively bad marriage ofc. But if you're in a marriage that "can be worked out" then yeah it's a bad thing, for the kids especially. There is definitely something to be said about making things work because there is no easy "out" called divorce.
  - ctrlp 3y ago
    In a healthy society, divorce should be difficult, expensive, and rare. Social incentives should be structured to make it less appealing than working on the marriage. Conversely, marriage and children within marriage should be incentivized by law and social programs. It may such policies are unworkable in our present configuration.
    - weregiraffe 3y ago
      In a healthy society there should be no institute of marriage at all.
      - ctrlp 3y ago
        Depends on what your definition of "health" is.
xapata 3y ago
> This is a preview of subscription content, access via your institution. Unfortunately, since I can't view the article, I can only guess that they evaluated a large number of professions. Since the abstract focused on law enforcement, it seems unlikely that they adjusted their criteria for statistical significance for psychologists in consideration of the number of variables they evaluated. In other words, "Jelly beans cause acne." https://xkcd.com/882/ https://xkcd.com/882/
- ctrlp 3y ago
  Here's the paper, decide for yourself. https://sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1007/s11896-009-9057-8 https://sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1007/s11896-009-9057-8
  - xapata 3y ago
    Looks like my hypothesis is supported by the evidence: On page 4, you can see their regression results. In fact, they don't estimate the statistical significance of any occupation as a factor, not even the law enforcement occupation that they focused on. The "media and communications equipment workers" category had a reported 0.00% divorce rate! It seems implausible that we should infer causality from this.
    - ctrlp 3y ago
      There are a few other studies on this. Maybe I'm reading these incorrectly so would appreciate your analysis. As far as I can interpret, the pattern is legit. What is especially counter-intuitive (unless you have a negative view of the profession, as I do) is that so-called professionals in mental health have a higher divorce rate even than respondents who score high on the "anger scale". So what's that all about? Divorce among physicians and other healthcare professionals in the United States https://sci-hub.st/10.1056/NEJM199703133361112 https://sci-hub.st/10.1056/NEJM199703133361112 Medical Specialty and the Incidence of Divorce https://sci-hub.st/10.1056/NEJM199703133361112 https://sci-hub.st/10.1056/NEJM199703133361112 Some callouts: > Survey results from 2008 through 2013 included responses from more than 40,000 physicians; 200,000 other health professionals—dentists, pharmacists, nurses and health care executives; and more than 6 million other adults who reported currently being employed and ever being married. While 24 percent of physician respondents had ever been divorced, the probability of being divorced was 25 percent among dentists, 31 percent among health care executives and 33 percent among nurses. Only pharmacists, at 23 percent, were less likely than physicians to have been divorced. Lawyers had a 27 percent probability of being divorced, and *in all non-health-care occupations, the probability of ever being divorced was 35 percent.* > A subsequent, larger study of 1118 medical graduates of Johns Hopkins University found cumulative rates of divorce of 29% *with rates higher among psychiatrists (50%)* and surgeons (33%) but was limited by its analysis of physicians from a single institution. > The choice of specialty was significantly associated (P>0.001) with the risk of divorce (Fig. 1 and Table 2). The cumulative incidence of divorce was highest for *psychiatrists (50 percent)*, followed by surgeons (33 percent) and “other” physicians (31 percent). Among internists, pediatricians, and pathologists, the incidence of divorce was similar (22 to 24 per- cent). > When we examined psychological variables, we found that physicians in the highest quartile for the anger scale had a higher risk of divorce than those scoring in the lower three quartiles. *Moreover, the cumulative incidence of divorce among the physicians with the highest anger scores was higher than that of any other subgroup, with the exception of those practicing psychiatry.*

by ctrlp 3y ago

weregiraffe 3y ago

You are saying it like divorce is a bad thing.

ctrlp 3y ago
Yeah, ok, it's just something to joke about. Nothing's serious. Nothing matters.
- alphager 3y ago
  Divorce is not the worst outcome of a marriage. Wasting your life in an unhappy marriage and developing lifelong resentments is way worse.
  - ctrlp 3y ago
    There are lots of bad outcomes in a marriage, but many marriages aren't given much of a chance.Anyone who has been successfully married after decades can tell you that it's ups and downs and takes work and there are many moments when you might want to give up. This culture encourages people to cut bait when things aren't fulfilling the spouse. But that's just more of the same individualistic attitudes that Psychodynamics helped create support for. When you enter into a marriage you are less an individual, when you have children, you are even less an individual. It shouldn't be so easy to divorce and there shouldn't be a whole industry that tries to make it easier. This idea that you can detach from your commits to family because you're "unhappy" is insidious and has too many perverse incentives to list here. Predatory industries like therapy are particularly distasteful because they clothe themselves in virtue when they are actually extreme toxic to the culture at large. That culture, if allowed to be healthy, would obviate the perceived need for most therapy (outside of seriously disordered people). Such needs would be supplied by extended family and friends.
ulizzle 3y ago
IRL, divorce is devastating for everyone involved, especially the children. I believe therapists diagnose divorce and breakups in general so often because it eases their conscience a bit. You can see this same reasoning with abortion and such topics. A divorced therapist is like a dentist with bad teeth or a tee-totaling drug-dealer. Can't trust any of 'em.
- fortuna86 3y ago
  [dead]
- WJW 3y ago
  Staying together when you hate each other is much worse. Sometimes divorce is just the best out of several bad options. (BTW, what is bad about teetotaling for a drug dealer? "Don't get high on your own supply" has allegedly been a credo for them since basically forever)
  - ulizzle 3y ago
    Hating each offer to the point of violence? Sure. But that’s now his this works IRL. That’s why there is the common movie trope of the wife leaving her husband gif the therapist. People divorce cus they “fall out of love” and, since society today puts self-interest, especially if its related to sex, above all else, and the nuclear family is seen as worthless and “problematic”, people ignore any evidence against their politically correct sheepish opinions. On your second question, drug dealers often start dealing to support their habit. Only in movies will you get that line. Y’all live such incredibly sheltered lives. Stay together for the kids. Once they leave the nest, sleep with all the therapists you want. But to pretend like divorce is anything but cringe and pathetic is twice as cringe.
zo1 3y ago
It isn't bad if you are in an objectively bad marriage ofc. But if you're in a marriage that "can be worked out" then yeah it's a bad thing, for the kids especially. There is definitely something to be said about making things work because there is no easy "out" called divorce.
- ctrlp 3y ago
  In a healthy society, divorce should be difficult, expensive, and rare. Social incentives should be structured to make it less appealing than working on the marriage. Conversely, marriage and children within marriage should be incentivized by law and social programs. It may such policies are unworkable in our present configuration.
  - weregiraffe 3y ago
    In a healthy society there should be no institute of marriage at all.
    - ctrlp 3y ago
      Depends on what your definition of "health" is.

xapata 3y ago

> This is a preview of subscription content, access via your institution. Unfortunately, since I can't view the article, I can only guess that they evaluated a large number of professions. Since the abstract focused on law enforcement, it seems unlikely that they adjusted their criteria for statistical significance for psychologists in consideration of the number of variables they evaluated. In other words, "Jelly beans cause acne." https://xkcd.com/882/ https://xkcd.com/882/

ctrlp 3y ago
Here's the paper, decide for yourself. https://sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1007/s11896-009-9057-8 https://sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1007/s11896-009-9057-8
- xapata 3y ago
  Looks like my hypothesis is supported by the evidence: On page 4, you can see their regression results. In fact, they don't estimate the statistical significance of any occupation as a factor, not even the law enforcement occupation that they focused on. The "media and communications equipment workers" category had a reported 0.00% divorce rate! It seems implausible that we should infer causality from this.
  - ctrlp 3y ago
    There are a few other studies on this. Maybe I'm reading these incorrectly so would appreciate your analysis. As far as I can interpret, the pattern is legit. What is especially counter-intuitive (unless you have a negative view of the profession, as I do) is that so-called professionals in mental health have a higher divorce rate even than respondents who score high on the "anger scale". So what's that all about? Divorce among physicians and other healthcare professionals in the United States https://sci-hub.st/10.1056/NEJM199703133361112 https://sci-hub.st/10.1056/NEJM199703133361112 Medical Specialty and the Incidence of Divorce https://sci-hub.st/10.1056/NEJM199703133361112 https://sci-hub.st/10.1056/NEJM199703133361112 Some callouts: > Survey results from 2008 through 2013 included responses from more than 40,000 physicians; 200,000 other health professionals—dentists, pharmacists, nurses and health care executives; and more than 6 million other adults who reported currently being employed and ever being married. While 24 percent of physician respondents had ever been divorced, the probability of being divorced was 25 percent among dentists, 31 percent among health care executives and 33 percent among nurses. Only pharmacists, at 23 percent, were less likely than physicians to have been divorced. Lawyers had a 27 percent probability of being divorced, and *in all non-health-care occupations, the probability of ever being divorced was 35 percent.* > A subsequent, larger study of 1118 medical graduates of Johns Hopkins University found cumulative rates of divorce of 29% *with rates higher among psychiatrists (50%)* and surgeons (33%) but was limited by its analysis of physicians from a single institution. > The choice of specialty was significantly associated (P>0.001) with the risk of divorce (Fig. 1 and Table 2). The cumulative incidence of divorce was highest for *psychiatrists (50 percent)*, followed by surgeons (33 percent) and “other” physicians (31 percent). Among internists, pediatricians, and pathologists, the incidence of divorce was similar (22 to 24 per- cent). > When we examined psychological variables, we found that physicians in the highest quartile for the anger scale had a higher risk of divorce than those scoring in the lower three quartiles. *Moreover, the cumulative incidence of divorce among the physicians with the highest anger scores was higher than that of any other subgroup, with the exception of those practicing psychiatry.*