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I think it’s great to have a healthy relationship with trust. What if I told you that there was a strategy that had a 50% risk of what you think is trust is ac

I think it’s great to have a healthy relationship with trust. What if I told you that there was a strategy that had a 50% risk of what you think is trust is actually deceit. And that having separate finances helps immensely in the situation where this risk is realized. I have friends who were comfortable and thought all was well for years or even decades. Then it wasn’t. And having commingled finances was unpleasant in that it made divorce and the financial mistakes that much harder to reconcile through years of trial. Tl;dr; it’s hard to take marriage advice from someone who hasn’t been married for 70 years. It’s like someone saying “this architecture is the best, it’s run for six months without any problems.”

scarface_74 3y ago
Separate checking accounts mean absolutely nothing during a divorce. It’s all considered marital property and is split. That along with “your” retirement savings, physical property etc. If my wife and I got divorced, our joint checking accounts is the least of my complications. I’ve got retirement accounts and two properties (our former primary home that’s rented out and our vacation property) and since we agreed for her to stop working in 2020, I would end up paying alimony. I did get a divorce before when I had three properties and a 401K. Luckily none of the houses had any equity of note and I was a simple matter of giving my ex cash out of my 401K (a QDRO)
- gizmo686 3y ago
  That is true at the end of a divorce, but in the beginning, possession is a very big deal. With a joint account, one partner can legally drain the entire account to a new personal one, and the other partner has no recourse other than court, which is slow. This is a highly assymetric risk for a lot of couples. If one of the was the sole source of income, they are in a much better position to wait for the court to intervene. This is assuming the money is still there at the end. The offending partner could attempt to hide it. Or they could have genuinely spent it.
- prepend 3y ago
  > Separate checking accounts mean absolutely nothing during a divorce This is not true. They mean a lot during the divorce. They mean little at resolution. But the first orders are for status quo and so using your own account and keeping it during the divorce means you have more control and visibility. Yes, parties can file motions to access and compel payment. But divorce isn’t like on tv, family courts are slow. With joint accounts it’s easy for one person to drain the cash and do something stupid like spend $75k on fake expenses that take two years to sort out. With separate accounts, this is not possible. The assets in accounts are split in community property states. But that’s at resolution and a lot of harm can happen during the course of drawn out disagreements. Cash flow is important during a divorce (especially one that takes a few years) so feel free to consult with a divorce attorney or a prenup attorney. This is not an issue for illiquid assets and accounts like real estate and 401ks.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    Is my experience so unique? I went from filing divorce to going to court and getting divorced in less than 4 months. It was uncontested and no kids - well I had a step daughter - and we had only been married four years.
    - lazide 3y ago
      It is relatively unique, but not THAT unique. In my experience, kids matter a lot in this - as kids give leverage over one or both parties that is not easy to sort out and is long lasting. Both visitation/custody, legal (claims of abuse), and money (child support). Divorces without kids are not guaranteed to be any picnic either, but kids often ramps it waaaay up.
em-bee 3y ago
What if I told you that there was a strategy that had a 50% risk of what you think is trust is actually deceit can you explain that please? or give an example. i don't understand what you are trying to say here.
- meetingthrower 3y ago
  50% of marriages end in divorce. Note this varies wildly by income. So your "risk" goes down the richer you are.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    sure, but i don't get how trust is actually deceit in those cases. people divorce for many reasons. deceit is not always the issue. and intuitively i'd think that deceit is more likely the richer you are.
    - prepend 3y ago
      Deceit is not always the reason, but it frequently is. It’s rather unpleasant to find out that years of seemingly trusting time together wasn’t.
      - em-bee 3y ago
        i was going to argue about statistics, but i think that's pointless. i am guessing that you or someone you know were deceived by their partner, which understandably reflects in how you think about it. you, or they, have my sympathy. but please allow me to ask for one more clarification: i would only call something deceit if it was the intention to marry someone in order to take advantage of them from the beginning. is that what you mean? or do you count a change much later as well?
        lazide 3y ago
        Sometimes it's clear that one or both parties were willfully deceiving themselves and/or the other party. Sometimes it's that they were unconsciously deceiving themselves or the other party. I know some folks who are getting divorced because 2 years into the relationship, one of them realized they were trans. Someone else, it was 18 years in and after having (and raising) a kid together. I used to work with someone that realized they were a lesbian after being married 25 years and raising a child together with their (male) spouse. For the other party, it can be a bit difficult to not see that as some kind of deception. It certainly changes 'the deal' pretty dramatically. Knowing a bit about what was going on, I was also seeing signs of emotional abuse in one or both parties that was concerning, and may have played a part. It's not normal for someone to have PTSD type reactions to basic office human interaction, for instance. They insisted things were fine though. Other times it's patterns of infidelity that come out much later, or actions that start once the 'ink is dry' that are deeply manipulative and destructive. Like 'oh honey, that's great that we're married now. Oh, I forgot to tell you about that $70k in credit card debt I just ran up.'. Other times, it's things like 'marrying for love', then leaving once the green card arrives, or have their degree paid off, etc. Or they're building multiple lives without anyone knowing - until someone finds out. Or they get deeply controlling and abusive once they feel they get enough leverage. Or they start screaming at their partner and stabbing the counter with a butcher knife because the other partner asked them if they were ok one too many times.... Or any number of things. People are... messy. If for some reason you have a reason to spend time in family court (if so, I'm deeply sorry), watch the other cases. It can be very informative. The reality is VERY different from how it is usually portrayed. Especially if you have EQ and can read between the lines a bit. My recent 'favorite' being the Mom who had a valid restraining order against her (due to prior incidents) who decided to violate it to the point she physically stepped on and hurt the fathers mom in front of their daughter and disrupted their daughters school event to the point she had to be physically escorted out by security. She got scolded by the judge for violating said order - and receiving no other penalty. Despite admitting to it in open court, TO THE JUDGE, and actually adding details that made it clear it was even worse. After the father hesitatingly brought it up. Eye opening is one way of putting it.
pmcjones 3y ago
I’ve been married for 53 years; we share our accounts and have never had any problems.

scarface_74 3y ago

Separate checking accounts mean absolutely nothing during a divorce. It’s all considered marital property and is split. That along with “your” retirement savings, physical property etc. If my wife and I got divorced, our joint checking accounts is the least of my complications. I’ve got retirement accounts and two properties (our former primary home that’s rented out and our vacation property) and since we agreed for her to stop working in 2020, I would end up paying alimony. I did get a divorce before when I had three properties and a 401K. Luckily none of the houses had any equity of note and I was a simple matter of giving my ex cash out of my 401K (a QDRO)

gizmo686 3y ago
That is true at the end of a divorce, but in the beginning, possession is a very big deal. With a joint account, one partner can legally drain the entire account to a new personal one, and the other partner has no recourse other than court, which is slow. This is a highly assymetric risk for a lot of couples. If one of the was the sole source of income, they are in a much better position to wait for the court to intervene. This is assuming the money is still there at the end. The offending partner could attempt to hide it. Or they could have genuinely spent it.
prepend 3y ago
> Separate checking accounts mean absolutely nothing during a divorce This is not true. They mean a lot during the divorce. They mean little at resolution. But the first orders are for status quo and so using your own account and keeping it during the divorce means you have more control and visibility. Yes, parties can file motions to access and compel payment. But divorce isn’t like on tv, family courts are slow. With joint accounts it’s easy for one person to drain the cash and do something stupid like spend $75k on fake expenses that take two years to sort out. With separate accounts, this is not possible. The assets in accounts are split in community property states. But that’s at resolution and a lot of harm can happen during the course of drawn out disagreements. Cash flow is important during a divorce (especially one that takes a few years) so feel free to consult with a divorce attorney or a prenup attorney. This is not an issue for illiquid assets and accounts like real estate and 401ks.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  Is my experience so unique? I went from filing divorce to going to court and getting divorced in less than 4 months. It was uncontested and no kids - well I had a step daughter - and we had only been married four years.
  - lazide 3y ago
    It is relatively unique, but not THAT unique. In my experience, kids matter a lot in this - as kids give leverage over one or both parties that is not easy to sort out and is long lasting. Both visitation/custody, legal (claims of abuse), and money (child support). Divorces without kids are not guaranteed to be any picnic either, but kids often ramps it waaaay up.

em-bee 3y ago

What if I told you that there was a strategy that had a 50% risk of what you think is trust is actually deceit can you explain that please? or give an example. i don't understand what you are trying to say here.

meetingthrower 3y ago
50% of marriages end in divorce. Note this varies wildly by income. So your "risk" goes down the richer you are.
- em-bee 3y ago
  sure, but i don't get how trust is actually deceit in those cases. people divorce for many reasons. deceit is not always the issue. and intuitively i'd think that deceit is more likely the richer you are.
  - prepend 3y ago
    Deceit is not always the reason, but it frequently is. It’s rather unpleasant to find out that years of seemingly trusting time together wasn’t.
    - em-bee 3y ago
      i was going to argue about statistics, but i think that's pointless. i am guessing that you or someone you know were deceived by their partner, which understandably reflects in how you think about it. you, or they, have my sympathy. but please allow me to ask for one more clarification: i would only call something deceit if it was the intention to marry someone in order to take advantage of them from the beginning. is that what you mean? or do you count a change much later as well?
      - lazide 3y ago
        Sometimes it's clear that one or both parties were willfully deceiving themselves and/or the other party. Sometimes it's that they were unconsciously deceiving themselves or the other party. I know some folks who are getting divorced because 2 years into the relationship, one of them realized they were trans. Someone else, it was 18 years in and after having (and raising) a kid together. I used to work with someone that realized they were a lesbian after being married 25 years and raising a child together with their (male) spouse. For the other party, it can be a bit difficult to not see that as some kind of deception. It certainly changes 'the deal' pretty dramatically. Knowing a bit about what was going on, I was also seeing signs of emotional abuse in one or both parties that was concerning, and may have played a part. It's not normal for someone to have PTSD type reactions to basic office human interaction, for instance. They insisted things were fine though. Other times it's patterns of infidelity that come out much later, or actions that start once the 'ink is dry' that are deeply manipulative and destructive. Like 'oh honey, that's great that we're married now. Oh, I forgot to tell you about that $70k in credit card debt I just ran up.'. Other times, it's things like 'marrying for love', then leaving once the green card arrives, or have their degree paid off, etc. Or they're building multiple lives without anyone knowing - until someone finds out. Or they get deeply controlling and abusive once they feel they get enough leverage. Or they start screaming at their partner and stabbing the counter with a butcher knife because the other partner asked them if they were ok one too many times.... Or any number of things. People are... messy. If for some reason you have a reason to spend time in family court (if so, I'm deeply sorry), watch the other cases. It can be very informative. The reality is VERY different from how it is usually portrayed. Especially if you have EQ and can read between the lines a bit. My recent 'favorite' being the Mom who had a valid restraining order against her (due to prior incidents) who decided to violate it to the point she physically stepped on and hurt the fathers mom in front of their daughter and disrupted their daughters school event to the point she had to be physically escorted out by security. She got scolded by the judge for violating said order - and receiving no other penalty. Despite admitting to it in open court, TO THE JUDGE, and actually adding details that made it clear it was even worse. After the father hesitatingly brought it up. Eye opening is one way of putting it.

pmcjones 3y ago

I’ve been married for 53 years; we share our accounts and have never had any problems.