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>Java development on the Mac is also very popular Yeah, right. Get back to me when Apple arrives in 2006 and releases a version 1.6 JVM, or at least provides

>Java development on the Mac is also very popular Yeah, right. Get back to me when Apple arrives in 2006 and releases a version 1.6 JVM, or at least provides an automatic update to Java 1.5 on OS X 10.4!

tlrobinson 18y ago
1.6 is available... but only for Intel Macs running Leopard: http://developer.apple.com/java/ http://developer.apple.com/java/ Also, I think it's pretty clear that Apple hates Java, at least on the desktop, and for pretty good reason. Java GUI apps are pretty much the antithesis of Mac OS X GUI apps. Java may be great for certain applications but I have yet to be convinced that GUI apps are one of them.
- tom_rath 18y ago
  You'd think that, but digging a little deeper shows: "Java SE 6 is available on 64-bit, Intel-based Macs only." Unless your customers are running 64-bit machines (and even they would have waited until this September for compatibility), you're SOL and have to compile a separate Java 1.5 release for Mac. So, Windows 2000/XP: No problem! 1.6 compatibility in 2006. OS X 10.5: Whoa! This Java thing is too new-fangled for us! As for the GUI: You can get around that with a Synth theme. Ugly and slow Java on the desktop is a thing of the past (even on Mac).
  - tlrobinson 18y ago
    It's not just the theme that I dislike (Java on OS X tries to mimic native OS X widgets) Java GUI apps just don't feel like real OS X apps. Whether that's a shortcoming of Java itself, Apple's implementation, or Java developers, I don't know. Probably a combination. I'm pretty sure that all the Macs Apple sells now (and for the past year or so) are 64-bit. (Also it's been available since April). But yes, it's less than ideal.
    - tom_rath 18y ago
      Restricting your customer base to those who purchased a new computer in the past year will greatly harm your income (particularly if you're selling business apps). As for the feel: Don't get bogged down by the implementation technology. The vast majority of your customers (presuming you're not targeting the rabid fanboy subset of Mac) will not notice nor care about the language you've implemented your application in. If your software does what a business needs and looks reasonably good while doing it, you'll make a killing.
      - lallysingh 18y ago
        I think you mean restricting your developer base. You know.... as it's Java. It should run (with modest effort) on a few platforms.
        tom_rath 18y ago
        No, I mean customer base. You cannot deploy Java 6 applications to Mac (except 64-bit Intel Mac OS X 10.5 after September, as mentioned above). You can build Java 6 for all other platforms (back to Windows 98, FFS), but to work for Mac customers you have to adjust your build to create a Java 1.5 version. You also have to add in special Java upgrade instructions for those using OS X 10.4 (since the 1.5 upgrade isn't included in automatic updates), and tell anyone with a Mac earlier than that to piss off, because Java 1.5 (released over FOUR years ago, in 2004) won't work on OS X 10.3 or earlier. That is an exceptional pain which isn't present on Windows or Linux. Apple makes wonderful hardware but they treat their third-party developers like crap. Microsoft is absolutely awesome in comparison and realizes that "Developers, Developers, Developers" are the secret to their OS's success.
        neilc 18y ago
        The Java on OSX situation is pretty deplorable, I agree. But that is not equivalent to "treating their third-party developers like crap." Java is an underprivileged minority on the OSX desktop, for better or worse.
- jaydub 18y ago
  Have you checked out Chet Haase & Romain Guy's Filthy Rich Clients in Java? Pretty slick in my opinion as far as Java UIs go. (See http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=155276 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=155276) It is worth noting that Chet has since moved to work for Adobe, and Romain now works at Google on the Android UI.
  - tlrobinson 18y ago
    Cool, though Leopard's Core Animation blows this out of the water.
- Tichy 18y ago
  The main application of Java has been server side programming for quite a while now. Not liking Java GUIs really is no plausible reason.

tlrobinson 18y ago

1.6 is available... but only for Intel Macs running Leopard: http://developer.apple.com/java/ http://developer.apple.com/java/ Also, I think it's pretty clear that Apple hates Java, at least on the desktop, and for pretty good reason. Java GUI apps are pretty much the antithesis of Mac OS X GUI apps. Java may be great for certain applications but I have yet to be convinced that GUI apps are one of them.

tom_rath 18y ago
You'd think that, but digging a little deeper shows: "Java SE 6 is available on 64-bit, Intel-based Macs only." Unless your customers are running 64-bit machines (and even they would have waited until this September for compatibility), you're SOL and have to compile a separate Java 1.5 release for Mac. So, Windows 2000/XP: No problem! 1.6 compatibility in 2006. OS X 10.5: Whoa! This Java thing is too new-fangled for us! As for the GUI: You can get around that with a Synth theme. Ugly and slow Java on the desktop is a thing of the past (even on Mac).
- tlrobinson 18y ago
  It's not just the theme that I dislike (Java on OS X tries to mimic native OS X widgets) Java GUI apps just don't feel like real OS X apps. Whether that's a shortcoming of Java itself, Apple's implementation, or Java developers, I don't know. Probably a combination. I'm pretty sure that all the Macs Apple sells now (and for the past year or so) are 64-bit. (Also it's been available since April). But yes, it's less than ideal.
  - tom_rath 18y ago
    Restricting your customer base to those who purchased a new computer in the past year will greatly harm your income (particularly if you're selling business apps). As for the feel: Don't get bogged down by the implementation technology. The vast majority of your customers (presuming you're not targeting the rabid fanboy subset of Mac) will not notice nor care about the language you've implemented your application in. If your software does what a business needs and looks reasonably good while doing it, you'll make a killing.
    - lallysingh 18y ago
      I think you mean restricting your developer base. You know.... as it's Java. It should run (with modest effort) on a few platforms.
      - tom_rath 18y ago
        No, I mean customer base. You cannot deploy Java 6 applications to Mac (except 64-bit Intel Mac OS X 10.5 after September, as mentioned above). You can build Java 6 for all other platforms (back to Windows 98, FFS), but to work for Mac customers you have to adjust your build to create a Java 1.5 version. You also have to add in special Java upgrade instructions for those using OS X 10.4 (since the 1.5 upgrade isn't included in automatic updates), and tell anyone with a Mac earlier than that to piss off, because Java 1.5 (released over FOUR years ago, in 2004) won't work on OS X 10.3 or earlier. That is an exceptional pain which isn't present on Windows or Linux. Apple makes wonderful hardware but they treat their third-party developers like crap. Microsoft is absolutely awesome in comparison and realizes that "Developers, Developers, Developers" are the secret to their OS's success.
        neilc 18y ago
        The Java on OSX situation is pretty deplorable, I agree. But that is not equivalent to "treating their third-party developers like crap." Java is an underprivileged minority on the OSX desktop, for better or worse.
jaydub 18y ago
Have you checked out Chet Haase & Romain Guy's Filthy Rich Clients in Java? Pretty slick in my opinion as far as Java UIs go. (See http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=155276 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=155276) It is worth noting that Chet has since moved to work for Adobe, and Romain now works at Google on the Android UI.
- tlrobinson 18y ago
  Cool, though Leopard's Core Animation blows this out of the water.
Tichy 18y ago
The main application of Java has been server side programming for quite a while now. Not liking Java GUIs really is no plausible reason.