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I'm Dutch and I want to push back against the glorification of our infrastructure. To comment on that video specifically: Yes, fully on board with the narrower

I'm Dutch and I want to push back against the glorification of our infrastructure. To comment on that video specifically: Yes, fully on board with the narrower streets, "hiding" parking, having some shared public space like playgrounds. These are all good things. But there's a flip side to this coin. This isn't necessarily a desired "way of life", it's what naturally evolved due to severe space constraints. I specifically take offense at high cost dense suburbia. You pay through the nose but still are not in some cool city. You have a tiny house and possibly noisy neighbors as well as less privacy. Suburbia can be denser but than it must be cheap. Dense expensive suburbia is the worst of all worlds.

enaaem 3y ago
I'm also dutch. Housing is indeed expensive here. There are many factors, but it's not because of walkable neighbourhoods, biking infrastructure and public transport (the things that are promoted). I'd argue that without these policies housing and transport will be 10x more expensive and inconvenient.
- dahwolf 3y ago
  The main factor is that the Netherlands is 15(!) times denser than the US. That's why everything has to be compact.
throw0101a 3y ago
> But there's a flip side to this coin. This isn't necessarily a desired "way of life", it's what naturally evolved due to severe space constraints. There is nothing 'natural' about the evolution of NL cities as demonstrated by the fact that (e.g.) Amsterdam started to go down the car-centric route: * https://inkspire.org/post/amsterdam-was-a-car-loving-city-in-the-1970s-what-changed/ https://inkspire.org/post/amsterdam-was-a-car-loving-city-in... It was a policy choice to not go in that direction—or rather to stop and turn away—as opposed to some kind of physical law of the universe. Not Just Bikes uses Rotterdam as an example of how even in NL† policy can go in other directions: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22ovt1EMULY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22ovt1EMULY My dad used to work at the post office facility in this area: * https://www.google.com/maps/place/4577+Eglinton+Ave+E,+Mississauga,+ON https://www.google.com/maps/place/4577+Eglinton+Ave+E,+Missi... In the early 1990s there used to be strawberries fields across the street, and now the entire area is filled with generic suburb strip malls. Perhaps agriculture would have gone away eventually, but there's no reason why it had car-centric, low-density development that replaced it. How close is agriculture to some NL cities? * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO6txCZpbsQ&t=9m28s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO6txCZpbsQ&t=9m28s > Suburbia can be denser but than it must be cheap. Dense expensive suburbia is the worst of all worlds. No: low-density expensive suburbia is the worst of all worlds because it necessitates cars, which has leads to all sorts of externality costs. The total OpEx is also much more expensive with low densities: * https://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/03/05/sprawl-costs-the-public-more-than-twice-as-much-as-compact-development https://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/03/05/sprawl-costs-the-publ... And just because you have sprawl doesn't mean you have cheap housing: * https://thetyee.ca/News/2018/03/23/Urban-Sprawl-Not-More-Affordable/ https://thetyee.ca/News/2018/03/23/Urban-Sprawl-Not-More-Aff... See LA and even the Greater Toronto area (GTA) as examples: * https://dailyhive.com/toronto/toronto-ranked-least-affordable-2019 https://dailyhive.com/toronto/toronto-ranked-least-affordabl... † I use "NL" in the international ccTLD sense, and not in my Canadian sense of the province of Newfoundland and Labrador. :)
- sonicshadow 3y ago
  Definitely thought you were talking about Newfoundland and Labrador until your footnote, thanks for that
- dahwolf 3y ago
  I mean these type of developments are "natural" in the sense that the Netherlands is one of the densest countries in the world, 15 times denser than the US. I can ensure you that the typical Dutch person would love to have a US style suburbian home.
drivers99 3y ago
> I'm Dutch and I want to push back against the glorification of our infrastructure. The same channel (Oh the Urbanity) just came out with another video yesterday explaining why we should try to use more examples than just Amsterdam and/or The Netherlands. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIcwzqRlZ68 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIcwzqRlZ68 The funny thing is I think they address your point about density. Many places (in NL) are less dense and still have infrastructure, and other places are more dense (in other countries) and could support the biking infrastructure but don't.

enaaem 3y ago

I'm also dutch. Housing is indeed expensive here. There are many factors, but it's not because of walkable neighbourhoods, biking infrastructure and public transport (the things that are promoted). I'd argue that without these policies housing and transport will be 10x more expensive and inconvenient.

dahwolf 3y ago
The main factor is that the Netherlands is 15(!) times denser than the US. That's why everything has to be compact.

throw0101a 3y ago

> But there's a flip side to this coin. This isn't necessarily a desired "way of life", it's what naturally evolved due to severe space constraints. There is nothing 'natural' about the evolution of NL cities as demonstrated by the fact that (e.g.) Amsterdam started to go down the car-centric route: * https://inkspire.org/post/amsterdam-was-a-car-loving-city-in-the-1970s-what-changed/ https://inkspire.org/post/amsterdam-was-a-car-loving-city-in... It was a policy choice to not go in that direction—or rather to stop and turn away—as opposed to some kind of physical law of the universe. Not Just Bikes uses Rotterdam as an example of how even in NL† policy can go in other directions: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22ovt1EMULY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22ovt1EMULY My dad used to work at the post office facility in this area: * https://www.google.com/maps/place/4577+Eglinton+Ave+E,+Mississauga,+ON https://www.google.com/maps/place/4577+Eglinton+Ave+E,+Missi... In the early 1990s there used to be strawberries fields across the street, and now the entire area is filled with generic suburb strip malls. Perhaps agriculture would have gone away eventually, but there's no reason why it had car-centric, low-density development that replaced it. How close is agriculture to some NL cities? * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO6txCZpbsQ&t=9m28s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO6txCZpbsQ&t=9m28s > Suburbia can be denser but than it must be cheap. Dense expensive suburbia is the worst of all worlds. No: low-density expensive suburbia is the worst of all worlds because it necessitates cars, which has leads to all sorts of externality costs. The total OpEx is also much more expensive with low densities: * https://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/03/05/sprawl-costs-the-public-more-than-twice-as-much-as-compact-development https://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/03/05/sprawl-costs-the-publ... And just because you have sprawl doesn't mean you have cheap housing: * https://thetyee.ca/News/2018/03/23/Urban-Sprawl-Not-More-Affordable/ https://thetyee.ca/News/2018/03/23/Urban-Sprawl-Not-More-Aff... See LA and even the Greater Toronto area (GTA) as examples: * https://dailyhive.com/toronto/toronto-ranked-least-affordable-2019 https://dailyhive.com/toronto/toronto-ranked-least-affordabl... † I use "NL" in the international ccTLD sense, and not in my Canadian sense of the province of Newfoundland and Labrador. :)

sonicshadow 3y ago
Definitely thought you were talking about Newfoundland and Labrador until your footnote, thanks for that
dahwolf 3y ago
I mean these type of developments are "natural" in the sense that the Netherlands is one of the densest countries in the world, 15 times denser than the US. I can ensure you that the typical Dutch person would love to have a US style suburbian home.

drivers99 3y ago

> I'm Dutch and I want to push back against the glorification of our infrastructure. The same channel (Oh the Urbanity) just came out with another video yesterday explaining why we should try to use more examples than just Amsterdam and/or The Netherlands. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIcwzqRlZ68 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIcwzqRlZ68 The funny thing is I think they address your point about density. Many places (in NL) are less dense and still have infrastructure, and other places are more dense (in other countries) and could support the biking infrastructure but don't.