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It's not saying much that stadiums are weird in a way that games don't model (edited). A stadium's audience loves to drive to places, that's the purpose of the

It's not saying much that stadiums are weird in a way that games don't model (edited). A stadium's audience loves to drive to places, that's the purpose of the destination, to watch a thing then eat garlic fries and drink and drive home, so whatever. I like the author's politics and agree with her sentiments. But if the author of this thing thinks she can run a business on Main Street without parking, by all means, she should go and do that. It gives me "I'm going to release my app for low end Android devices" energy. People who spend money, especially on the alcohol and jewelry on which Main St thrives, really fucking love to drive. The most authentic system to me in Sim City was starting in debt, which I understand few players do. Then, it makes most sense to pause time and spend 100% of your money on day one, because services can be paid in deficit but improvements cannot. So why waste positive balance on services you can keep on with deficit spending? This strategy brings you the greatest ROI and the greatest tax base growth. The micro of like, how many square feet of X does it take to simulate system Y... I don't know, who cares. The minmaxing people on YouTube make fascinating content re: urban design ideas, but it's not like it's grounded in reality.

Sharlin 3y ago
That's a very North American biased view. In fact, many studies have shown that in reasonably structured cities, pedestrians and public transit users are a more important source of income to downtown commercial services than motorists. Their individual transactions tend to be smaller, but there are more of them. But it's also vital that the city center and its neighboring areas are actually places where people live, not just visit for work and shopping. There's a quote that goes something like "Americans really like to be tourists in the city they live in". But yes, many business owners (and the sorts of politicians they tend to vote) are irrationally attached to the idea that motorists are the ones who bring in the money, and that proposals to make cities more livable and less car-dependent would be really bad for business. I'd wager that to an extent they're just trying to come up with rational sounding post-hoc reasons for their emotional attachment to cars and driving.
- doctorpangloss 3y ago
  > But yes, many business owners (and the sorts of politicians they tend to vote) are irrationally attached to the idea that motorists are the ones who bring in the money If they're so irrational, go and start a business with no parking! I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying that you're not appreciating the forces that make people put up with commutes and parking in the first place. > pedestrians and public transit users are a more important source of income to downtown commercial services than motorists My family and I bike everywhere. Obviously my dog in this race is more accessible cities. I'm just being intellectually honest. Like dude, the company that makes my e-bikes is going into receivership. I live next to Valencia Street in San Francisco, and there was so much opposition to building new bike lanes, thoroughly vetted by experts, from cyclists themselves. I would almost call it "irrational." They didn't even build the center lanes very far, because the center lanes from 23rd to Cesar Chavez would have reduced the way the megachurches use the center lane as free parking on Sundays. The businesses on Valencia Street need those underage CSU revelers trucked in by Ubers. They cannot walk from a side street to Blondie's, the thing they pay for is to be dropped off in front of the door. Someone has to deliver all that alcohol that sells! Someone has to truck the produce in gas-guzzling trucks to Rainbow. Someone's gotta gas-powered-bus the pickers to pick the produce at Rainbow. This is my one neighborhood. You are welcome to try to start a new local business on the idea that "[poor people's] individual transactions tend to be smaller, but there are more of them." I can guarantee you will fail. I appreciate that there are experts studying this. They are welcome to apply for civil jobs in San Francisco! They can go and win elections! I am aligned with those politics and want those outcomes, and I am not saying they are inaccurate at all. I am saying your "studies" an incomplete view on cities.
  - Sharlin 3y ago
    I understand and empathize with your frustration, but I did specifically say that there are some prerequisites for car-light city centers to work well. But I felt that you in turn unfairly generalized the unfortunate NA situation¹ when in fact in, say, Europe there are dozens of cities with pedestrian/transit-first historical centers and hundreds more where it would be perfectly achievable – and is slowly being achieved – if not for ideological opposition. --- ¹ Even SF is much less dense than almost any European city of comparable size!
lazyasciiart 3y ago
> It's not saying much that stadiums have very favorable land prices, which aren't modeled in the games. But that's not even true, much like your assertion that businesses are kept afloat by customers who drive to them.
ryukafalz 3y ago
> But if the author of this thing thinks she can run a business on Main Street without parking, by all means, she should go and do that. The whole point is that this is illegal. Let’s make it legal again and see what happens. :)

Sharlin 3y ago

That's a very North American biased view. In fact, many studies have shown that in reasonably structured cities, pedestrians and public transit users are a more important source of income to downtown commercial services than motorists. Their individual transactions tend to be smaller, but there are more of them. But it's also vital that the city center and its neighboring areas are actually places where people live, not just visit for work and shopping. There's a quote that goes something like "Americans really like to be tourists in the city they live in". But yes, many business owners (and the sorts of politicians they tend to vote) are irrationally attached to the idea that motorists are the ones who bring in the money, and that proposals to make cities more livable and less car-dependent would be really bad for business. I'd wager that to an extent they're just trying to come up with rational sounding post-hoc reasons for their emotional attachment to cars and driving.

doctorpangloss 3y ago
> But yes, many business owners (and the sorts of politicians they tend to vote) are irrationally attached to the idea that motorists are the ones who bring in the money If they're so irrational, go and start a business with no parking! I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying that you're not appreciating the forces that make people put up with commutes and parking in the first place. > pedestrians and public transit users are a more important source of income to downtown commercial services than motorists My family and I bike everywhere. Obviously my dog in this race is more accessible cities. I'm just being intellectually honest. Like dude, the company that makes my e-bikes is going into receivership. I live next to Valencia Street in San Francisco, and there was so much opposition to building new bike lanes, thoroughly vetted by experts, from cyclists themselves. I would almost call it "irrational." They didn't even build the center lanes very far, because the center lanes from 23rd to Cesar Chavez would have reduced the way the megachurches use the center lane as free parking on Sundays. The businesses on Valencia Street need those underage CSU revelers trucked in by Ubers. They cannot walk from a side street to Blondie's, the thing they pay for is to be dropped off in front of the door. Someone has to deliver all that alcohol that sells! Someone has to truck the produce in gas-guzzling trucks to Rainbow. Someone's gotta gas-powered-bus the pickers to pick the produce at Rainbow. This is my one neighborhood. You are welcome to try to start a new local business on the idea that "[poor people's] individual transactions tend to be smaller, but there are more of them." I can guarantee you will fail. I appreciate that there are experts studying this. They are welcome to apply for civil jobs in San Francisco! They can go and win elections! I am aligned with those politics and want those outcomes, and I am not saying they are inaccurate at all. I am saying your "studies" an incomplete view on cities.
- Sharlin 3y ago
  I understand and empathize with your frustration, but I did specifically say that there are some prerequisites for car-light city centers to work well. But I felt that you in turn unfairly generalized the unfortunate NA situation¹ when in fact in, say, Europe there are dozens of cities with pedestrian/transit-first historical centers and hundreds more where it would be perfectly achievable – and is slowly being achieved – if not for ideological opposition. --- ¹ Even SF is much less dense than almost any European city of comparable size!

lazyasciiart 3y ago

> It's not saying much that stadiums have very favorable land prices, which aren't modeled in the games. But that's not even true, much like your assertion that businesses are kept afloat by customers who drive to them.

ryukafalz 3y ago

> But if the author of this thing thinks she can run a business on Main Street without parking, by all means, she should go and do that. The whole point is that this is illegal. Let’s make it legal again and see what happens. :)