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For #3, I think Python is working on making a better python. I have some 'lingua franca' projects at work. Python projects are easy to hand off and the the iter

For #3, I think Python is working on making a better python. I have some 'lingua franca' projects at work. Python projects are easy to hand off and the the iterations are getting faster. Most of these projects are currently in python 3.9, but i'm looking forward to the speed increases that 3.11 will bring.

mbb70 3y ago
Agreed, much like Java turned out to be the next evolution of Java. Python is the the 'good enough at everything + huge ecosystem' language that you can't replace no matter how much cooler the concurrency paradigm.
- NoboruWataya 3y ago
  Definitely agree that Java has come a long way recently and not at all looking to start a language war, but I think that at the very least Java should share its "next evolution of Java" podium with Kotlin.
- adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
  IMO Java is still at least 5 years behind C#. It's hard for me to take Java seriously without project Valhalla.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Just like .NET Native AOT is quite some years behind GraalVM, OpenJ9, having high profile real time bare metal runtimes like PTC and Aicas have been selling for 20 years with deployment in battlefield scenarios, being used in the biggest mobile OS platform. As someone working on a polyglot delivery agency, many UNIX shops still don't take .NET seriously, given how many key libraries are still stuck in VS/Windows workflows or not yet ported from .NET Framework. It is more than just Java vs C#, the several JVM implementations and CLR also matter. Note that even Microsoft takes Java seriously enough to have their own Java distribution, after the Sun/Microsoft drama, and any major Azure product deployment also requires day 1 support for Java.
    - oblio 3y ago
      99.99% of companies only use OpenJDK derived JDKs, though.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        Sure if we forget ART isn't really derived from OpenJDK, and there are plenty of Java implementations beyond 0.01%, in business for the last 30 years.
    - neonsunset 3y ago
      This is unlikely, since Native AOT is not exactly a separate flavour, it builds right on the same compiler optimizations, sans those that are possible with JIT only. In addition, years of development is a bad, bad proxy for the results. .NET had been changing very slowly up until it went the .NET Framework -> .NET Core -> .NET OSS route. Since then, the last 4 years have brought more (performance and feature) changes than the previous 10+. With .NET 8, I highly doubt JVM implementations would have superiority (with Dynamic PGO being enabled by default closing one of the avenues where HotSpot used to have an advantage), except maybe in certain niche scenarios. Also, Java can no longer be compared to C# directly (because they are not equal in features, or even levels of abstractions you can go as of now). A fair comparison would be Kotlin for higher level and Go for lower level scenarios.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        Except plenty of people, including Microsoft own products, are still stuck in .NET Framework. Additionally plenty of business are only adopting LTS versions. Then we have big names like Sitecore, that decided it was time to move on, and all their major acquisition are based on Java and JS/TS products. The GUI civil war isn't helping the community. The .NET team was grilled on twitter due to the way the last Technetpower benchmark was conducted. While F# keeps being neglected, VB is stable, and CLR changes to mean C# Language Runtime, JVM now enjoys Scala, Kotlin and Clojure. NativeAOT is still not going to be fully done for .NET 8, and apparently it will require minimal APIs to be usable, hello rewrites, yet again. Still no roadmap for GUI support on Native AOT, and then there is the recent joke that VSCode MAUI plugin doesn't do Linux anyway, only Android, when on Linux. It is a bit more complex than playing football teams with languages on the school playground.
k__ 3y ago
I had the impression, the Python people have basically given up and ported everything remotely performance demanding to C/C++.
- biorach 3y ago
  Given up? That was the plan all along.
- fuzztester 3y ago
  Python was never supposed or planned to be a high performance language, at least not comparable to C or C++, AFAIK.
bandrami 3y ago
Python moves too fast and breaks things too often, though. It's why I went back to Perl.

mbb70 3y ago

Agreed, much like Java turned out to be the next evolution of Java. Python is the the 'good enough at everything + huge ecosystem' language that you can't replace no matter how much cooler the concurrency paradigm.

NoboruWataya 3y ago
Definitely agree that Java has come a long way recently and not at all looking to start a language war, but I think that at the very least Java should share its "next evolution of Java" podium with Kotlin.
adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
IMO Java is still at least 5 years behind C#. It's hard for me to take Java seriously without project Valhalla.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Just like .NET Native AOT is quite some years behind GraalVM, OpenJ9, having high profile real time bare metal runtimes like PTC and Aicas have been selling for 20 years with deployment in battlefield scenarios, being used in the biggest mobile OS platform. As someone working on a polyglot delivery agency, many UNIX shops still don't take .NET seriously, given how many key libraries are still stuck in VS/Windows workflows or not yet ported from .NET Framework. It is more than just Java vs C#, the several JVM implementations and CLR also matter. Note that even Microsoft takes Java seriously enough to have their own Java distribution, after the Sun/Microsoft drama, and any major Azure product deployment also requires day 1 support for Java.
  - oblio 3y ago
    99.99% of companies only use OpenJDK derived JDKs, though.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Sure if we forget ART isn't really derived from OpenJDK, and there are plenty of Java implementations beyond 0.01%, in business for the last 30 years.
  - neonsunset 3y ago
    This is unlikely, since Native AOT is not exactly a separate flavour, it builds right on the same compiler optimizations, sans those that are possible with JIT only. In addition, years of development is a bad, bad proxy for the results. .NET had been changing very slowly up until it went the .NET Framework -> .NET Core -> .NET OSS route. Since then, the last 4 years have brought more (performance and feature) changes than the previous 10+. With .NET 8, I highly doubt JVM implementations would have superiority (with Dynamic PGO being enabled by default closing one of the avenues where HotSpot used to have an advantage), except maybe in certain niche scenarios. Also, Java can no longer be compared to C# directly (because they are not equal in features, or even levels of abstractions you can go as of now). A fair comparison would be Kotlin for higher level and Go for lower level scenarios.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Except plenty of people, including Microsoft own products, are still stuck in .NET Framework. Additionally plenty of business are only adopting LTS versions. Then we have big names like Sitecore, that decided it was time to move on, and all their major acquisition are based on Java and JS/TS products. The GUI civil war isn't helping the community. The .NET team was grilled on twitter due to the way the last Technetpower benchmark was conducted. While F# keeps being neglected, VB is stable, and CLR changes to mean C# Language Runtime, JVM now enjoys Scala, Kotlin and Clojure. NativeAOT is still not going to be fully done for .NET 8, and apparently it will require minimal APIs to be usable, hello rewrites, yet again. Still no roadmap for GUI support on Native AOT, and then there is the recent joke that VSCode MAUI plugin doesn't do Linux anyway, only Android, when on Linux. It is a bit more complex than playing football teams with languages on the school playground.

k__ 3y ago

I had the impression, the Python people have basically given up and ported everything remotely performance demanding to C/C++.

biorach 3y ago
Given up? That was the plan all along.
fuzztester 3y ago
Python was never supposed or planned to be a high performance language, at least not comparable to C or C++, AFAIK.

bandrami 3y ago

Python moves too fast and breaks things too often, though. It's why I went back to Perl.