4 ms·

Half is taken by the university? How does that work?

by sushid 3y ago

gonzo 3y ago
Happens all the time, nearly everywhere.
justinclift 3y ago
Renting the space to the departments and other similar things probably. I wish I was joking, but a friend who works at a Uni was recently complaining of their budget being affected by (mandatory) things like that.
- ModernMech 3y ago
  Space is limited and coveted. What better way would you propose to allocate it than to give it to who can bring in the money to pay for it? That money goes to building new spaces, which is good for everyone.
  - justinclift 3y ago
    Sure. Because Universities are all about "bringing in the money" rather than education, research, and similar yeah?
    - sclarisse 3y ago
      Yeah :(
  - ke88y 3y ago
    > What better way Open up all federal grants -- especially NSF grants -- to anyone with credentials or experience necessary to PI (so, a PhD or equivalent industry experience). Broaden the reviewer pool so that each panel is at least 51% non-Professor expert citizens. I can do a LOT of advising and conduct a LOT of research with close to 0% overhead. But most NSF grants are only possible to get if you attach yourself to a university, and at that point it's just not worth the effort. Everyone loses, except for the academic industry, which gets heinously immoral labor laws exceptions so that TT professors and admins can retire-in-place on the taxpayer's dime in their mid 30s. What possible actual reason does the NSF have for requiring research work to be done at universities?
    - ModernMech 3y ago
      > I can do a LOT of advising and conduct a LOT of research with close to 0% overhead. Spoken like someone whose never done research. I’d love to hear what kind of research you think you can do at 0% overhead. No one can do anything at 0% overhead, are you serious?
      - justinclift 3y ago
        Have you considered doing an MBA? :)
- magicalhippo 3y ago
  And an evergrowing administration, at least where my mom works. She said they used to take 1/3 not that many years ago, now it's 1/2. In the same period the administration has grown considerably. A big problem is they don't always get all the money they apply for, and so with the added overhead there's sometimes very little left to do actual science.
ModernMech 3y ago
Consider it rent+taxes to live in the University environment. You get access to libraries. IT infrastructure. Special equipment and space for your research. Lots of competent smart people eager to help you with your project. How much would you pay for that? I worked at a startup and between the rent for our office and our individual rents, like 80% of the VC money went into landlord pockets. Also there are plenty of “tax breaks” you can get so that you don’t have to pay so much. Capital expenditures will be taxed at 0%, so you can get your overall rate down significantly.
throw9away6 3y ago
Only half. The university bureaucracy is great and all powerful
etrautmann 3y ago
Overhead is required to pay for space, electricity, admin, etc. This is not inherently a problem, but the percentages getting too high is...
chriskanan 3y ago
It varies per university. Looks like for UMich it is 56%. https://orsp.umich.edu/develop-proposal/budget-and-cost-resources/facilities-administrative-fa-costs-rates https://orsp.umich.edu/develop-proposal/budget-and-cost-reso... I believe Stanford is 60%. My university is 54%. Here is an explanation for the justification of this: https://spo.berkeley.edu/guide/fa.html https://spo.berkeley.edu/guide/fa.html It does certainly feel excessive as an academic. I've never seen actual tracking of where the F&A money goes in terms of a quantifiable breakdown, e.g., what fraction goes to university accounting for doing their needed work for supporting a sponsored project, what amount goes toward electricity, etc. Universities always seem to be negotiating with the Federal government to raise the rate. When I was at an institution with a 45% rate, though, it let me stretch my grants a lot further by allowing me to fund more students.

Half is taken by the university? How does that work?

by sushid 3y ago

Half is taken by the university? How does that work?

gonzo 3y ago

Happens all the time, nearly everywhere.

justinclift 3y ago

Renting the space to the departments and other similar things probably. I wish I was joking, but a friend who works at a Uni was recently complaining of their budget being affected by (mandatory) things like that.

ModernMech 3y ago
Space is limited and coveted. What better way would you propose to allocate it than to give it to who can bring in the money to pay for it? That money goes to building new spaces, which is good for everyone.
- justinclift 3y ago
  Sure. Because Universities are all about "bringing in the money" rather than education, research, and similar yeah?
  - sclarisse 3y ago
    Yeah :(
- ke88y 3y ago
  > What better way Open up all federal grants -- especially NSF grants -- to anyone with credentials or experience necessary to PI (so, a PhD or equivalent industry experience). Broaden the reviewer pool so that each panel is at least 51% non-Professor expert citizens. I can do a LOT of advising and conduct a LOT of research with close to 0% overhead. But most NSF grants are only possible to get if you attach yourself to a university, and at that point it's just not worth the effort. Everyone loses, except for the academic industry, which gets heinously immoral labor laws exceptions so that TT professors and admins can retire-in-place on the taxpayer's dime in their mid 30s. What possible actual reason does the NSF have for requiring research work to be done at universities?
  - ModernMech 3y ago
    > I can do a LOT of advising and conduct a LOT of research with close to 0% overhead. Spoken like someone whose never done research. I’d love to hear what kind of research you think you can do at 0% overhead. No one can do anything at 0% overhead, are you serious?
    - justinclift 3y ago
      Have you considered doing an MBA? :)
magicalhippo 3y ago
And an evergrowing administration, at least where my mom works. She said they used to take 1/3 not that many years ago, now it's 1/2. In the same period the administration has grown considerably. A big problem is they don't always get all the money they apply for, and so with the added overhead there's sometimes very little left to do actual science.

ModernMech 3y ago

Consider it rent+taxes to live in the University environment. You get access to libraries. IT infrastructure. Special equipment and space for your research. Lots of competent smart people eager to help you with your project. How much would you pay for that? I worked at a startup and between the rent for our office and our individual rents, like 80% of the VC money went into landlord pockets. Also there are plenty of “tax breaks” you can get so that you don’t have to pay so much. Capital expenditures will be taxed at 0%, so you can get your overall rate down significantly.

throw9away6 3y ago

Only half. The university bureaucracy is great and all powerful

etrautmann 3y ago

Overhead is required to pay for space, electricity, admin, etc. This is not inherently a problem, but the percentages getting too high is...

chriskanan 3y ago

It varies per university. Looks like for UMich it is 56%. https://orsp.umich.edu/develop-proposal/budget-and-cost-resources/facilities-administrative-fa-costs-rates https://orsp.umich.edu/develop-proposal/budget-and-cost-reso... I believe Stanford is 60%. My university is 54%. Here is an explanation for the justification of this: https://spo.berkeley.edu/guide/fa.html https://spo.berkeley.edu/guide/fa.html It does certainly feel excessive as an academic. I've never seen actual tracking of where the F&A money goes in terms of a quantifiable breakdown, e.g., what fraction goes to university accounting for doing their needed work for supporting a sponsored project, what amount goes toward electricity, etc. Universities always seem to be negotiating with the Federal government to raise the rate. When I was at an institution with a 45% rate, though, it let me stretch my grants a lot further by allowing me to fund more students.