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I think that's all of Earth when it comes to a population of give or take 10 billion people. It really feels like all the stuff that people said wasn't sustaina

I think that's all of Earth when it comes to a population of give or take 10 billion people. It really feels like all the stuff that people said wasn't sustainable when I was a kid wasn't sustainable and it's all starting to come apart.

baggy_trough 3y ago
I don't know what you mean by "sustainable". I look around and I see people are fatter and richer than ever before.
- AlexandrB 3y ago
  I guess it depends where you live. I see record numbers of unhoused people and young adults living with their parents into their 30s.
- titzer 3y ago
  Sustainable means "we could keep doing it this way indefinitely" and the answer...no, we absolutely cannot keep doing it (i.e. producing energy) this way indefinitely. It never was sustainable, we just live in a system with a huge amount of inertia and big reservoirs that allows us to imagine things are sustainable when they aren't.
  - baggy_trough 3y ago
    Since the Earth is finite every use of raw materials is unsustainable eventually. That's not something I worry about because costs will shift around and new ways to meet needs will be found.
    - titzer 3y ago
      And yet life on Earth has managed to carry on for 3.7 billion years. How? Recycling. The answer is recycling. > That's not something I worry about Oh, we know. There are plenty of people thoughtlessly devouring irreplaceable things, consuming the habitat of life's creatures, and farting up a literal shit storm of carbon waste. Such people make lousy neighbors and their unsustainable habits are going away, one way or another. "Yeah I don't care about that" isn't nearly the burn you might think it is.
      - baggy_trough 3y ago
        What a rude statement.
      - southernplaces7 3y ago
        And I suppose you devour nothing irreplaceable, consume no part of nature's habitat and create minimal carbon waste? Anyone can criticize others for their supposedly evil habits, but then somehow be utterly blind to how their own are similar or the same in substance, if not in superficial form. At the very least, you own and use a laptop or mobile device, since you're commenting here. Any idea how much colossal mining is needed to manufacture both?
    - ttfkam 3y ago
      The Earth is finite, but it is not a closed system. This is how solar, wind, tidal, and hydro are able to work: The Sun. Aside from that, it's that whole "matter neither created no destroyed but merely changing forms." The difference with fossil fuels, overfishing the oceans, etc. is as was mentioned earlier, the huge reservoir of stored energy we've been consuming without replenishing, extending beyond fish populations' ability to reproduce and the system's ability to absorb excess CO2. We can be sustainable on a finite planet as long as we find the balance, which means dramatically changing the way we interact with our world: dramatically less fossil fuels converted to greenhouse gases and sustainable fisheries that protect breeding grounds (for example).
    - ttfkam 3y ago
      > costs will shift around This is the fundamental failure of capitalism: there is no market for global climate change, because humans have trouble en masse thinking in terms longer than a human lifetime. We're living on credit when the bill due will be paid by our children or grandchildren. It's not immediate and we mistake that for not being urgent. "Costs will shift around" falls down when large areas of the planet reach 150+ degrees and aquatic populations collapse. Then you're not simply paying in dollars. You're paying in refugees, water rights, food rationing, war, disease, etc. "Disease? What?" Yep, just think of all of those cities at higher altitudes. Most were established at altitudes where biting insects that carry diseases don't propagate. Heat up the planet, and all of those disease vectors move up with the expanded heat envelope. Compound interest is a real monster, and far too many of us refuse to look beyond the current balance sheet, expecting to pay just what they see today, not what the bill will look like a year from now.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      A wooden tool will be decomposed and the material content will be part of other living things. An iron tool can also be recast. Burning up trapped carbon that slowly accumulated underneath for millions of years in a hundred years is definitely not anything like the above.

baggy_trough 3y ago

I don't know what you mean by "sustainable". I look around and I see people are fatter and richer than ever before.

AlexandrB 3y ago
I guess it depends where you live. I see record numbers of unhoused people and young adults living with their parents into their 30s.
titzer 3y ago
Sustainable means "we could keep doing it this way indefinitely" and the answer...no, we absolutely cannot keep doing it (i.e. producing energy) this way indefinitely. It never was sustainable, we just live in a system with a huge amount of inertia and big reservoirs that allows us to imagine things are sustainable when they aren't.
- baggy_trough 3y ago
  Since the Earth is finite every use of raw materials is unsustainable eventually. That's not something I worry about because costs will shift around and new ways to meet needs will be found.
  - titzer 3y ago
    And yet life on Earth has managed to carry on for 3.7 billion years. How? Recycling. The answer is recycling. > That's not something I worry about Oh, we know. There are plenty of people thoughtlessly devouring irreplaceable things, consuming the habitat of life's creatures, and farting up a literal shit storm of carbon waste. Such people make lousy neighbors and their unsustainable habits are going away, one way or another. "Yeah I don't care about that" isn't nearly the burn you might think it is.
    - baggy_trough 3y ago
      What a rude statement.
    - southernplaces7 3y ago
      And I suppose you devour nothing irreplaceable, consume no part of nature's habitat and create minimal carbon waste? Anyone can criticize others for their supposedly evil habits, but then somehow be utterly blind to how their own are similar or the same in substance, if not in superficial form. At the very least, you own and use a laptop or mobile device, since you're commenting here. Any idea how much colossal mining is needed to manufacture both?
  - ttfkam 3y ago
    The Earth is finite, but it is not a closed system. This is how solar, wind, tidal, and hydro are able to work: The Sun. Aside from that, it's that whole "matter neither created no destroyed but merely changing forms." The difference with fossil fuels, overfishing the oceans, etc. is as was mentioned earlier, the huge reservoir of stored energy we've been consuming without replenishing, extending beyond fish populations' ability to reproduce and the system's ability to absorb excess CO2. We can be sustainable on a finite planet as long as we find the balance, which means dramatically changing the way we interact with our world: dramatically less fossil fuels converted to greenhouse gases and sustainable fisheries that protect breeding grounds (for example).
  - ttfkam 3y ago
    > costs will shift around This is the fundamental failure of capitalism: there is no market for global climate change, because humans have trouble en masse thinking in terms longer than a human lifetime. We're living on credit when the bill due will be paid by our children or grandchildren. It's not immediate and we mistake that for not being urgent. "Costs will shift around" falls down when large areas of the planet reach 150+ degrees and aquatic populations collapse. Then you're not simply paying in dollars. You're paying in refugees, water rights, food rationing, war, disease, etc. "Disease? What?" Yep, just think of all of those cities at higher altitudes. Most were established at altitudes where biting insects that carry diseases don't propagate. Heat up the planet, and all of those disease vectors move up with the expanded heat envelope. Compound interest is a real monster, and far too many of us refuse to look beyond the current balance sheet, expecting to pay just what they see today, not what the bill will look like a year from now.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    A wooden tool will be decomposed and the material content will be part of other living things. An iron tool can also be recast. Burning up trapped carbon that slowly accumulated underneath for millions of years in a hundred years is definitely not anything like the above.