5 ms·

I always find comments like this a little awkward, because how much of Tokyo and Japan being "safe" is because it's largely racially homogenous, politically/soc

by tempsy 3y ago

I always find comments like this a little awkward, because how much of Tokyo and Japan being "safe" is because it's largely racially homogenous, politically/socially conservative, and anti-immigration compared to other first world countries.

spankalee 3y ago
You're pointing out differences, but they're not why it's safe. Are you claiming the immigrants and other races cause crime?
- decafninja 3y ago
  No, but throwing disparate groups, each with their own interests, into the same pot, is not as conducive to harmony versus everyone belonging to more or less the same "in" group. Both a melting pot society and a homogenous one have their pros and cons. I love the former, but I also don't pretend to think there aren't serious cons to a melting pot and pros to a homogeneity.
  - spankalee 3y ago
    You still have no proposed link from "melting pot" to crime. You're just stating some demographic difference between the countries. Meanwhile there are some differences, especially in policy, that are very easy to link to crime: Japan has practically no guns. Japan has universal healthcare. The US has a poverty rate of over 10%, while Japan has a poverty rate of under 2%. Japan builds housing. Japanese public education is much more equitable and supported by the national government.
    - jameslk 3y ago
      https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007.00176.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007...
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - decafninja 3y ago
      Maybe it's a chicken and egg question? Why is Japan able to do that, and the US isn't? When practically everyone is a fellow Japanese, you don't have people griping about universal healthcare (or social safety nets in general) benefitting the "other" who "don't deserve it". Or feeling that you need to own guns to "protect yourself from the other".
      - spankalee 3y ago
        There's an easy link from guns -> violence. You're proposed link from homogeneity -> gun control is completely unsupported.
        decafninja 3y ago
        Considering most developed countries have strict gun controls, the US is unique and you can't really apply the issues of guns to anywhere else. But a lot of pro-gun advocates cite that they want guns to protect themselves. My general point stands. If everyone around you is part of your "in" group, you're more likely to be willing to help them out and less likely to see them as a threat. I would like to believe that most people are able to transcend racial, ethnic, religious, or even national boundaries to help their fellow man. However, reality shows me this is not the case.
        rayiner 3y ago
        Look at the homicide rates in some Latin American countries with no guns compared to similarly disarmed, poorer Asian countries.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
    > No, but throwing disparate groups, each with their own interests, into the same pot, is not as conducive to harmony versus everyone belonging to more or less the same "in" group. This is not true, and not possible in practice. In any seemingly homogenous group there are various subgroups, often at odds with each other for whatever reason. It's just human nature. Harmony has more to do with local culture, the economy and other quality of life issues. Have a look at a place like Australia, which has little conflict overall even though it has a large and growing immigrant population. That has to do with an egalitarian culture and being a fairly wealthy country with nice weather.
    - tempsy 3y ago
      I'm not really seeing where the racial diversity is in Australia. The 2021 census data shows majority of Australians are White/European and then some Chinese/Indian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Australia
      - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
        That's because you think in terms of White and Black, which is a US centric view. The diversity is by ethnic background, skin colour is irrelevant. A more enlightening statistic is that about half of Australians have a parent that was born overseas, which means they have an ethnic background. https://www.abs.gov.au/media-centre/media-releases/2021-census-nearly-half-australians-have-parent-born-overseas https://www.abs.gov.au/media-centre/media-releases/2021-cens...
    - decafninja 3y ago
      I can't speak specifically about Australia since I'm not familiar with it. But what is "local culture"? It's made up by the local people. In a homogenous society like Japan, it's Japanese culture. In a melting pot society like the US, it's a mix of the product of old European immigrants that have mostly merged and assimilated with each other, African Americans forcibly brought over via the slave trade that emerged with their own culture, and finally combined with more recent arrivals from Asia/Africa/Latin America who are much less assimilated. When one or more cultures meet, sometimes they adapt positively. Sometimes they adapt negatively. When you have so many cultures mixed together, there is bound to be friction. That doesn't necessarily mean violence, but it can be something more subtle - like certain races or groups resisting interacting with each other beyond the bare necessities. I wouldn't be surprised if this is true in Australia too. I'm Asian American, and I am ashamed to admit I have zero African American friends (I have Black friends, but they are all more recent African/European/Caribbean immigrants). Cultural norms and upbringing has a lot to do with it. At the risk of sounding too clinical, one of my goals is to genuinely befriend more African Americans.
sofixa 3y ago
> how much of Tokyo and Japan being "safe" is because it's largely racially homogenous, politically/socially conservative, and anti-immigration compared to other first world countries. Citation very much needed. For instance Russia is socially and politically conservative, mostly "racially" (everyone is "white" because according to you that matters) homogeneous, anti-immigration (outside of limited amounts of labourers from the former Soviet republics), yet... it's not safe nor clean nor developed. Same can be applied to a host of different countries across the world.
- HNhottakeIdiot 3y ago
  [flagged]
- jansan 3y ago
  Hmm, I looked at the list of the world's most dangerous cities, and even scrolling all the way down did not reveal a single Russian city (its mainly South and Middle America, South Africa and the USA). Can you give a citation for your claim?
  - sofixa 3y ago
    Just because Russian cities aren't among the most dangerous in official records doesn't make them in any way safe. If nothing else, the complete lack of rule of law, with arbitrary detentions, should be enough of an indicator of an unsafe place.
    - jansan 3y ago
      That needs citation, too.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      Now you’re moving the goal posts. There’s plenty of places that lack political freedom but are very safe in terms of day to day life. E.g. China or Singapore.
      - 3y ago
skulk 3y ago
Racial homogeneity doesn't necessarily explain why you don't get mugged at night. A mugger doesn't see race; a mugger sees money, or lack thereof on their own part. Threatening someone with violence is their path of least resistance, so maybe there's an alternative in Japan (a working social safety net perhaps?).
- decafninja 3y ago
  Racism exists everywhere. Often, one or more groups are downtrodden, and that leads to the social grievances that result in things like crime. Racism exists in countries like Japan too. Except the number of non-Japanese (or non East Asian who can often pass for Japanese) are statistically so insignificant that it is far less of an issue than say, the US.
blululu 3y ago
I've seen comments like this in a number of places and I'm sure the high degree of social cohesion is a big factor but I think that this list is perhaps too narrow. I would also add that the high degree of social cohesion is supported by high wages and a strong labor movement. Japan has a constitution that was written by New Deal Democrats that gives labor and unions a lot of rights. Labor is strong and well paid (Japanese CEOs are also strong and well paid but nothing like CEOs of American companies who feel no shame in taking a 10% pay bump while firing 16% of their workers). Japanese politics are simply different. American pundits would look at a mainline LDP and variably call him a fascist or a communist depending on the issue.

by tempsy 3y ago

spankalee 3y ago

You're pointing out differences, but they're not why it's safe. Are you claiming the immigrants and other races cause crime?

decafninja 3y ago
No, but throwing disparate groups, each with their own interests, into the same pot, is not as conducive to harmony versus everyone belonging to more or less the same "in" group. Both a melting pot society and a homogenous one have their pros and cons. I love the former, but I also don't pretend to think there aren't serious cons to a melting pot and pros to a homogeneity.
- spankalee 3y ago
  You still have no proposed link from "melting pot" to crime. You're just stating some demographic difference between the countries. Meanwhile there are some differences, especially in policy, that are very easy to link to crime: Japan has practically no guns. Japan has universal healthcare. The US has a poverty rate of over 10%, while Japan has a poverty rate of under 2%. Japan builds housing. Japanese public education is much more equitable and supported by the national government.
  - jameslk 3y ago
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007.00176.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - decafninja 3y ago
    Maybe it's a chicken and egg question? Why is Japan able to do that, and the US isn't? When practically everyone is a fellow Japanese, you don't have people griping about universal healthcare (or social safety nets in general) benefitting the "other" who "don't deserve it". Or feeling that you need to own guns to "protect yourself from the other".
    - spankalee 3y ago
      There's an easy link from guns -> violence. You're proposed link from homogeneity -> gun control is completely unsupported.
      - decafninja 3y ago
        Considering most developed countries have strict gun controls, the US is unique and you can't really apply the issues of guns to anywhere else. But a lot of pro-gun advocates cite that they want guns to protect themselves. My general point stands. If everyone around you is part of your "in" group, you're more likely to be willing to help them out and less likely to see them as a threat. I would like to believe that most people are able to transcend racial, ethnic, religious, or even national boundaries to help their fellow man. However, reality shows me this is not the case.
      - rayiner 3y ago
        Look at the homicide rates in some Latin American countries with no guns compared to similarly disarmed, poorer Asian countries.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  > No, but throwing disparate groups, each with their own interests, into the same pot, is not as conducive to harmony versus everyone belonging to more or less the same "in" group. This is not true, and not possible in practice. In any seemingly homogenous group there are various subgroups, often at odds with each other for whatever reason. It's just human nature. Harmony has more to do with local culture, the economy and other quality of life issues. Have a look at a place like Australia, which has little conflict overall even though it has a large and growing immigrant population. That has to do with an egalitarian culture and being a fairly wealthy country with nice weather.
  - tempsy 3y ago
    I'm not really seeing where the racial diversity is in Australia. The 2021 census data shows majority of Australians are White/European and then some Chinese/Indian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Australia
    - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
      That's because you think in terms of White and Black, which is a US centric view. The diversity is by ethnic background, skin colour is irrelevant. A more enlightening statistic is that about half of Australians have a parent that was born overseas, which means they have an ethnic background. https://www.abs.gov.au/media-centre/media-releases/2021-census-nearly-half-australians-have-parent-born-overseas https://www.abs.gov.au/media-centre/media-releases/2021-cens...
  - decafninja 3y ago
    I can't speak specifically about Australia since I'm not familiar with it. But what is "local culture"? It's made up by the local people. In a homogenous society like Japan, it's Japanese culture. In a melting pot society like the US, it's a mix of the product of old European immigrants that have mostly merged and assimilated with each other, African Americans forcibly brought over via the slave trade that emerged with their own culture, and finally combined with more recent arrivals from Asia/Africa/Latin America who are much less assimilated. When one or more cultures meet, sometimes they adapt positively. Sometimes they adapt negatively. When you have so many cultures mixed together, there is bound to be friction. That doesn't necessarily mean violence, but it can be something more subtle - like certain races or groups resisting interacting with each other beyond the bare necessities. I wouldn't be surprised if this is true in Australia too. I'm Asian American, and I am ashamed to admit I have zero African American friends (I have Black friends, but they are all more recent African/European/Caribbean immigrants). Cultural norms and upbringing has a lot to do with it. At the risk of sounding too clinical, one of my goals is to genuinely befriend more African Americans.

sofixa 3y ago

> how much of Tokyo and Japan being "safe" is because it's largely racially homogenous, politically/socially conservative, and anti-immigration compared to other first world countries. Citation very much needed. For instance Russia is socially and politically conservative, mostly "racially" (everyone is "white" because according to you that matters) homogeneous, anti-immigration (outside of limited amounts of labourers from the former Soviet republics), yet... it's not safe nor clean nor developed. Same can be applied to a host of different countries across the world.

HNhottakeIdiot 3y ago
[flagged]
jansan 3y ago
Hmm, I looked at the list of the world's most dangerous cities, and even scrolling all the way down did not reveal a single Russian city (its mainly South and Middle America, South Africa and the USA). Can you give a citation for your claim?
- sofixa 3y ago
  Just because Russian cities aren't among the most dangerous in official records doesn't make them in any way safe. If nothing else, the complete lack of rule of law, with arbitrary detentions, should be enough of an indicator of an unsafe place.
  - jansan 3y ago
    That needs citation, too.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    Now you’re moving the goal posts. There’s plenty of places that lack political freedom but are very safe in terms of day to day life. E.g. China or Singapore.
    - 3y ago

skulk 3y ago

Racial homogeneity doesn't necessarily explain why you don't get mugged at night. A mugger doesn't see race; a mugger sees money, or lack thereof on their own part. Threatening someone with violence is their path of least resistance, so maybe there's an alternative in Japan (a working social safety net perhaps?).

decafninja 3y ago
Racism exists everywhere. Often, one or more groups are downtrodden, and that leads to the social grievances that result in things like crime. Racism exists in countries like Japan too. Except the number of non-Japanese (or non East Asian who can often pass for Japanese) are statistically so insignificant that it is far less of an issue than say, the US.

blululu 3y ago

I've seen comments like this in a number of places and I'm sure the high degree of social cohesion is a big factor but I think that this list is perhaps too narrow. I would also add that the high degree of social cohesion is supported by high wages and a strong labor movement. Japan has a constitution that was written by New Deal Democrats that gives labor and unions a lot of rights. Labor is strong and well paid (Japanese CEOs are also strong and well paid but nothing like CEOs of American companies who feel no shame in taking a 10% pay bump while firing 16% of their workers). Japanese politics are simply different. American pundits would look at a mainline LDP and variably call him a fascist or a communist depending on the issue.