4 ms·

A college town's context is very different than that of the central business district and inner city of a large metropolitan area. Context doesn't just matter,

A college town's context is very different than that of the central business district and inner city of a large metropolitan area. Context doesn't just matter, it's one of, if not the most, important aspects to consider when selecting a development pattern. You can't turn downtown St. Lous into downtown Iowa City or even 'downtown' Seoul, South Korea. Dreamers hate this reality and will contort their assertions every which way they can to avoid admitting any of this.

throwbadubadu 3y ago
But those contexts and also such "contexts transformations" exist, so why possible at some places and unthinkable at others? Just saying "dreamer hits reality hard" is a bit destructive, arrogant, and apparently not the complete necessary truth?
dublinben 3y ago
Downtown St. Louis used to look like Iowa City though, before it was ruined by "urban renewal" and automobiles in the 20th century.[0][1] It was deliberately transformed from one into the other, and can just as deliberately be transformed back again. [0] https://www.pinterest.com/pin/91127592440641982/ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/91127592440641982/ [1] https://www.stlmag.com/history/pedestrian-deaths-streets-downtown-st-louis-gravois/ https://www.stlmag.com/history/pedestrian-deaths-streets-dow...
dopidopHN 3y ago
Paris is closing the already pretty closed downtown ( along the Seine ). Does that qualify as large metro area? What are the actual piece of reality that makes it impossible in US cities?
- mlyle 3y ago
  It's totally possible, but not as a step change. Heavy car traffic is a stable system that's actively unfriendly to pedestrian and bicycle uses. You need to slowly claw away space for bicycles and increase ridership; and then work to densify and intermix commercial and residential for things to work well. It takes decades, and the initial steps make things worse even if the new equilibrium is better.
  - chimeracoder 3y ago
    > Heavy car traffic is a stable system that's actively unfriendly to pedestrian and bicycle uses. You need to slowly claw away space for bicycles and increase ridership; and then work to densify and intermix commercial and residential for things to work well. > > It takes decades, and the initial steps make things worse even if the new equilibrium is better. Your point about the stable equilibrium is correct, but there's no reason it has to take decades. If you look at pictures of cities like Amsterdam, Paris, and Vienna from not long ago, you can see how much more pedestrian-friendly they were made, and much of those changes actually happened more or less overnight. The actual changes are pretty easy to implement. Red tape slows it down, but that's a feature of our own invention, not an inherent limitation.
    - mlyle 3y ago
      Things can definitely improve. I'm thinking of Copenhagen, which is probably the most bicycle friendly city in the world; it's taken about 50-70 years of bicycle-friendly policy and it's only now reached a point where number of car trips per day and bicycle trips per day in the city are equal.
  - dopidopHN 3y ago
    Yes, it takes grits. Yo expands on Paris, Each mayor has been hated for it. The last one in particular. But then the reclaimed public space speaks for itself. Usually it seams irreal to think that an highway was in place of that canal/pedestrian area/bike lane/long park
  - panick21_ 3y ago
    It takes decades because policy makers aren't willing to make big steps. And believes like your that it has to take decades are part of the reason why they don't. As soon as you take away cars, people look for alternatives and the space is claimed by lots of uses. Bus and bicycle use goes up fast.
hibikir 3y ago
As it happens, a non-trivial amount of Downtown St Louis is now failing commercial real estate: It's not just the AT&T building, which could be had for cheaper than many Seattle single family homes, or the two hotels in receivership, but also now Bank of America plaza. Wework exited downtown too, leaving two more empty floors in One Metropolitan Square. Its current use is basically sporting events, and the few government buildings that have to stay there. Now, I'd not recommend that we centered any serious investment making downtown less car-friendly, but mainly because downtown's fixes are way too expensive: In its current form, it's not doing well, and not trending up. Walkability could help, but walkability downtown isn't a matter of making Market street narrower, or slower: Many buildings themselves are set up to be anti-pedestrian, with huge setbacks to the street, and no retail space. Just huge office buildings nobody wants to rent. Interventions to help the city of St Louis just have to start in parts of the city that have better bones. Spend a little to make the somewhat successful parts of the city a bit more successful. Allow relatively walkable neighborhoods to become denser, bigger and more walkable, and see if people vote with their feet. Downtown? We couldn't afford fixing it, for either cars or pedestrians.

throwbadubadu 3y ago

But those contexts and also such "contexts transformations" exist, so why possible at some places and unthinkable at others? Just saying "dreamer hits reality hard" is a bit destructive, arrogant, and apparently not the complete necessary truth?

dublinben 3y ago

Downtown St. Louis used to look like Iowa City though, before it was ruined by "urban renewal" and automobiles in the 20th century.[0][1] It was deliberately transformed from one into the other, and can just as deliberately be transformed back again. [0] https://www.pinterest.com/pin/91127592440641982/ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/91127592440641982/ [1] https://www.stlmag.com/history/pedestrian-deaths-streets-downtown-st-louis-gravois/ https://www.stlmag.com/history/pedestrian-deaths-streets-dow...

dopidopHN 3y ago

Paris is closing the already pretty closed downtown ( along the Seine ). Does that qualify as large metro area? What are the actual piece of reality that makes it impossible in US cities?

mlyle 3y ago
It's totally possible, but not as a step change. Heavy car traffic is a stable system that's actively unfriendly to pedestrian and bicycle uses. You need to slowly claw away space for bicycles and increase ridership; and then work to densify and intermix commercial and residential for things to work well. It takes decades, and the initial steps make things worse even if the new equilibrium is better.
- chimeracoder 3y ago
  > Heavy car traffic is a stable system that's actively unfriendly to pedestrian and bicycle uses. You need to slowly claw away space for bicycles and increase ridership; and then work to densify and intermix commercial and residential for things to work well. > > It takes decades, and the initial steps make things worse even if the new equilibrium is better. Your point about the stable equilibrium is correct, but there's no reason it has to take decades. If you look at pictures of cities like Amsterdam, Paris, and Vienna from not long ago, you can see how much more pedestrian-friendly they were made, and much of those changes actually happened more or less overnight. The actual changes are pretty easy to implement. Red tape slows it down, but that's a feature of our own invention, not an inherent limitation.
  - mlyle 3y ago
    Things can definitely improve. I'm thinking of Copenhagen, which is probably the most bicycle friendly city in the world; it's taken about 50-70 years of bicycle-friendly policy and it's only now reached a point where number of car trips per day and bicycle trips per day in the city are equal.
- dopidopHN 3y ago
  Yes, it takes grits. Yo expands on Paris, Each mayor has been hated for it. The last one in particular. But then the reclaimed public space speaks for itself. Usually it seams irreal to think that an highway was in place of that canal/pedestrian area/bike lane/long park
- panick21_ 3y ago
  It takes decades because policy makers aren't willing to make big steps. And believes like your that it has to take decades are part of the reason why they don't. As soon as you take away cars, people look for alternatives and the space is claimed by lots of uses. Bus and bicycle use goes up fast.

hibikir 3y ago

As it happens, a non-trivial amount of Downtown St Louis is now failing commercial real estate: It's not just the AT&T building, which could be had for cheaper than many Seattle single family homes, or the two hotels in receivership, but also now Bank of America plaza. Wework exited downtown too, leaving two more empty floors in One Metropolitan Square. Its current use is basically sporting events, and the few government buildings that have to stay there. Now, I'd not recommend that we centered any serious investment making downtown less car-friendly, but mainly because downtown's fixes are way too expensive: In its current form, it's not doing well, and not trending up. Walkability could help, but walkability downtown isn't a matter of making Market street narrower, or slower: Many buildings themselves are set up to be anti-pedestrian, with huge setbacks to the street, and no retail space. Just huge office buildings nobody wants to rent. Interventions to help the city of St Louis just have to start in parts of the city that have better bones. Spend a little to make the somewhat successful parts of the city a bit more successful. Allow relatively walkable neighborhoods to become denser, bigger and more walkable, and see if people vote with their feet. Downtown? We couldn't afford fixing it, for either cars or pedestrians.