4 ms·

If you have to use an IDE to program, you're not programming in the language, you're programming the IDE. There are many times I have to log into remote system

by pnathan 15y ago

If you have to use an IDE to program, you're not programming in the language, you're programming the IDE. There are many times I have to log into remote systems and all I have are nano or vi. Not even emacs. If I have IDE-dependancy, I'm up a creek without a paddle.

eropple 15y ago
If you're hot-patching code in a remote environment, you have much bigger problems than "I don't have an IDE!". I use an IDE--and for many languages, ex. Java, Scala, and C#, would say I have to--because my time is worth something to me.
- kamaal 15y ago
  I use an IDE--and for many languages, ex. Java, Scala, and C#, would say I have to--because my time is worth something to me. For the languages you've mentioned. Java and C# do you really have any other option, but to use an IDE? Its like, goes without saying and assumed that you are and every body is programming with an IDE. In case of Java. You must know eclipse today is nearly a part of the language and not a separate tool.
  - eropple 15y ago
    I can write Java without an IDE. It's not that hard--it just takes additional time. Valuable time that I could spend writing other code or sleeping or drinking beer. The assumption that it would be Eclipse, however, is hilarious.
jiggy2011 15y ago
You aren't really "programming the IDE" since you are using the same language as you would be if you used something more like vim. You may be used to a workflow that a particular IDE emphasizes but that doesn't mean that they couldn't muddle through with an editor + command line tools if required. Sure you might have to read some more documentation but I would argue that you are still using what is in essence an "IDE" just without the "I" since you are using a more loosely coupled set of tools. At it's core an IDE is usually just a text editor with a few buttons that run scripts anyway. Whether you happen to call them from BASH or a GUI is largely inconsequential. There may be people who are hopelessly lost without an IDE but more than likely it's just that it's that IDE they learned at school/their last job because they were focusing more on learning the code than learning Unix commands. People are naturally afraid of things that are unfamiliar but given time and a push in the right direction anybody capable of writing a program should be able to pick up these skills.
- srean 15y ago
  but that doesn't mean that they couldn't muddle through with an editor + command line tools if required. Anecdotal evidence is not a proof, but my empirical observation suggests otherwise. There is, unfortunately, an un-ignorable set of IDE users who cannot be bothered into reading documentation about the language (and I am not talking about support tools manuals). They feel entitled that the IDE should take care of those "details". For this crowd, IDE becomes a necessity and my claim is that its an accidental or an artificial necessity. Not having an IDE may slow you down but it should not stop you, and that is exactly what I have seen time and again. I am fine with them using any of their preferred tools but they should have some idea of whats going on underneath, hence my two use cases for an IDE. If you know what you are doing, by all means use an IDE.
  - jiggy2011 15y ago
    If someone has a pathological aversion to documentation then relying on an IDE may be more of a symptom. However quality of documentation for programming tools/languages varies so much that I can understand where this may come from if you have mainly been exposed to the bad kind. Plus sometimes it is nice to have a bit of "magic" to do some of the work for you when you have something you need done on a deadline and don't have time to grok the details of everything. It can be useful to go back and try and grok some of the details later but you won't usually grasp this until you experience the pain of working with an incomplete understanding first hand. I have also met programmers who are almost the complete opposite of IDE addicts. Usually people who come from a PHP/Javascript background and have become used to doing everything using EditPad and debugging with echo statements. It's often just as difficult to make these people realise that they could save time and gain more power by looking into more sophisticated tools whether they are parts of an IDE or command line tools.
ajuc 15y ago
I don't mind writing C++ or python or javascript in mcedit or kate (sorry, I just can't get used to vim nor emacs, I tried). But Java is special, try to code Java without an IDE. It's possible, but it's PITA. Typing org.something.somethingElse.somethingEvenMoreElse.ClassINeed and looking it up for every class you need will kill you. Even importing org.something * from every library won't help, you still need to know subpackages path to each class, and most libraries have quite huge depth and branching factor :).

by pnathan 15y ago

eropple 15y ago

If you're hot-patching code in a remote environment, you have much bigger problems than "I don't have an IDE!". I use an IDE--and for many languages, ex. Java, Scala, and C#, would say I have to--because my time is worth something to me.

kamaal 15y ago
I use an IDE--and for many languages, ex. Java, Scala, and C#, would say I have to--because my time is worth something to me. For the languages you've mentioned. Java and C# do you really have any other option, but to use an IDE? Its like, goes without saying and assumed that you are and every body is programming with an IDE. In case of Java. You must know eclipse today is nearly a part of the language and not a separate tool.
- eropple 15y ago
  I can write Java without an IDE. It's not that hard--it just takes additional time. Valuable time that I could spend writing other code or sleeping or drinking beer. The assumption that it would be Eclipse, however, is hilarious.

jiggy2011 15y ago

You aren't really "programming the IDE" since you are using the same language as you would be if you used something more like vim. You may be used to a workflow that a particular IDE emphasizes but that doesn't mean that they couldn't muddle through with an editor + command line tools if required. Sure you might have to read some more documentation but I would argue that you are still using what is in essence an "IDE" just without the "I" since you are using a more loosely coupled set of tools. At it's core an IDE is usually just a text editor with a few buttons that run scripts anyway. Whether you happen to call them from BASH or a GUI is largely inconsequential. There may be people who are hopelessly lost without an IDE but more than likely it's just that it's that IDE they learned at school/their last job because they were focusing more on learning the code than learning Unix commands. People are naturally afraid of things that are unfamiliar but given time and a push in the right direction anybody capable of writing a program should be able to pick up these skills.

srean 15y ago
but that doesn't mean that they couldn't muddle through with an editor + command line tools if required. Anecdotal evidence is not a proof, but my empirical observation suggests otherwise. There is, unfortunately, an un-ignorable set of IDE users who cannot be bothered into reading documentation about the language (and I am not talking about support tools manuals). They feel entitled that the IDE should take care of those "details". For this crowd, IDE becomes a necessity and my claim is that its an accidental or an artificial necessity. Not having an IDE may slow you down but it should not stop you, and that is exactly what I have seen time and again. I am fine with them using any of their preferred tools but they should have some idea of whats going on underneath, hence my two use cases for an IDE. If you know what you are doing, by all means use an IDE.
- jiggy2011 15y ago
  If someone has a pathological aversion to documentation then relying on an IDE may be more of a symptom. However quality of documentation for programming tools/languages varies so much that I can understand where this may come from if you have mainly been exposed to the bad kind. Plus sometimes it is nice to have a bit of "magic" to do some of the work for you when you have something you need done on a deadline and don't have time to grok the details of everything. It can be useful to go back and try and grok some of the details later but you won't usually grasp this until you experience the pain of working with an incomplete understanding first hand. I have also met programmers who are almost the complete opposite of IDE addicts. Usually people who come from a PHP/Javascript background and have become used to doing everything using EditPad and debugging with echo statements. It's often just as difficult to make these people realise that they could save time and gain more power by looking into more sophisticated tools whether they are parts of an IDE or command line tools.

ajuc 15y ago

I don't mind writing C++ or python or javascript in mcedit or kate (sorry, I just can't get used to vim nor emacs, I tried). But Java is special, try to code Java without an IDE. It's possible, but it's PITA. Typing org.something.somethingElse.somethingEvenMoreElse.ClassINeed and looking it up for every class you need will kill you. Even importing org.something * from every library won't help, you still need to know subpackages path to each class, and most libraries have quite huge depth and branching factor :).