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I feel you, but I’d like to point the Finger in the other direction as well: (modern) programming is not sane. The tools and the environment are not made to be

I feel you, but I’d like to point the Finger in the other direction as well: (modern) programming is not sane. The tools and the environment are not made to be sharp and minimal, we are not using hammers and screwdrivers, we are all using custom made chainsaws with hundreds of proprietary extensions and that’s about as minimal as it gets. Sometimes it’s actually more like wielding multiple nunchucks each covered with chainsaws. It’s quite disappointing we need multiple layers of assistance to even begin our work. Syntax, autocomplete, go-to def. These sound like simple things, but are fiendishly difficult. Catering to all the various languages’ their idiosyncrasies is, as you have noticed, a task beyond the community. If something like editing some basic pieces of code takes multiple man-years to facilitate and requires “language servers” I tend to look towards the environment that produces such monstrosities. Maybe we could stop complicating things so damn much? Impractical I know, but I won’t give up an ideal just because it can’t be reached (now).

dbalatero 3y ago
Sorry what alternative are you proposing? Instead of syntax highlighting do you want… minimal syntax in languages? Instead of autocomplete do you just want to type the thing out manually? Instead of go-to def do you just want the code in 1 file? These things didn't require language servers historically, but LSP was an attempt to reduce "many editors re-implementing the same functionality many times" to "implementing the same functionality once and connecting many editors to it". This has a cost, and YMMV on the docs for getting LSPs set up, but I don't think I'd prefer going back. I don't use it, but it seems like VSCode has 1-click plugin installs for most of these LSP integrations, more or less?
- SanderNL 3y ago
  Notice I said these features sound (and should be) easy, but they are not. The “intellisense” features themselves are fine as QoL improvements. It’s the environment and the languages themselves that produces these “problems”. I mean, let’s say, Python. I just don’t know what to say to you if you think sanity lies in that direction. I’m in the somewhat marginal Alan Kay camp and think computing can and should be reconsidered from scratch. I cannot prove we are on a dead end, but I have the strong sense that we are and I want to encourage other paradigms and ways of approaching development and computing in general.

dbalatero 3y ago

Sorry what alternative are you proposing? Instead of syntax highlighting do you want… minimal syntax in languages? Instead of autocomplete do you just want to type the thing out manually? Instead of go-to def do you just want the code in 1 file? These things didn't require language servers historically, but LSP was an attempt to reduce "many editors re-implementing the same functionality many times" to "implementing the same functionality once and connecting many editors to it". This has a cost, and YMMV on the docs for getting LSPs set up, but I don't think I'd prefer going back. I don't use it, but it seems like VSCode has 1-click plugin installs for most of these LSP integrations, more or less?

SanderNL 3y ago
Notice I said these features sound (and should be) easy, but they are not. The “intellisense” features themselves are fine as QoL improvements. It’s the environment and the languages themselves that produces these “problems”. I mean, let’s say, Python. I just don’t know what to say to you if you think sanity lies in that direction. I’m in the somewhat marginal Alan Kay camp and think computing can and should be reconsidered from scratch. I cannot prove we are on a dead end, but I have the strong sense that we are and I want to encourage other paradigms and ways of approaching development and computing in general.