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>It also needs extensive overhaul after every flight to maintain stealth coating. There is no "quick refual/arm" with stealth, it is more like operating Space S

>It also needs extensive overhaul after every flight to maintain stealth coating. There is no "quick refual/arm" with stealth, it is more like operating Space Shuttle! I don't know where you heard that but it's completely untrue. Some older radar absorbent material required intensive maintenance but the F-35 is not like that. It's not that much more difficult to maintain than a previous generation fighter. It would be completely impractical to operate if you needed to completely overhaul it every flight.

Thoeu388 3y ago
Right now that is not verifiable. It is a clasiffied information, only supported by claims from manufacturer. And maintaince cost is already dispuded at court in Switzerland. >It would be completely impractical to operate if you needed to completely overhaul it every flight. And? Maybe it is every 2nd or 10th flight, that does not make it much more practical. Cost for operating F35 is astronomical. Old Soviet airplanes we had could take of from grassy fields!
- avereveard 3y ago
  And their circle of hit probability with preprogrammed missiles is misured in hundreds meters instead of a handful. The war for which they were built never materialised, and their performances now largely obsolete. And who's going to sell you replacement parts anyway if your principal adversary is also your plane supplier? You want suppliers that don't threaten to nuke you every other week. Soviet planes came at a much higher cost...
  - Thoeu388 3y ago
    I get your point. But: - right now we have fighters from Sweden (not Soviet design obviously) - Soviet planes came with technical plans, we would be probably capable to fix them by our selves to huge extend. Ukraine maintained their Soviet planes for 10 years during war. Also we manufactured some airplanes ourself, and even today Czechia produces fighter jets. - Many countries produces Soviet derived planes and spare parts. Ukraine, India, China.. Half of world operates those, and there is a huge market. - For Slovakia (and other NATO countries) that operate Migs, Russia was actually supplying spare until very recently. They sabotaged spare parts AFTER it was announced that Migs were going to be send to Ukraine, which was against the support contract.
    - KeplerBoy 3y ago
      Calling the L39 a jet fighter is a bit of a stretch. It's a trainer that can be armed and used to intercept general aviation aircraft.
      - Thoeu388 3y ago
        If F35 gets grounded again for some software error, or virtual helmet reality problem, that will be our only air defense :(
        KeplerBoy 3y ago
        At least you guys have a backup. If the Eurofighter gets grounded Austria has no airforce, because we retired the Saab 105 without buying L39s or Grippens as replacement.
        Thoeu388 3y ago
        Honestly, I would just prefer good S300 system. At Ukraine it covered sky for almost a year. Jet fighters for air superiority are obsolete.
        dralley 3y ago
        >Jet fighters for air superiority are obsolete. Nobody in Ukraine would agree with this. For keeping Russian fighters out of your airspace, sure, ground based air defense is great. For taking your territory back, it cannot substitute for jet fighters.
        preisschild 3y ago
        S300 is only good against old jets, not against modern stealth jets such as the F-35. Modern western SAM systems such as PATRIOT and NASAMS are obviously much more capable. > Jet fighters for air superiority are obsolete. No they aren't. Why do you think Ukraine is asking for F-16s. You can deny air superiority to the enemies with good air defense, but not establish it for yourself.
- luuurker 3y ago
  What's your source for "it also needs extensive overhaul after every flight to maintain stealth coating"?
  - Thoeu388 3y ago
    Different stealth airplanes. Some documentaries that celebrate Raptor and F35 as technical marvel (highly complex). I have not really observed any maintenance difference or break throughout between F22 and F35. And nobody really provided any solid numbers. If numbers are good, it would be easy to prove. There is a lawsuit going in Switzerland. Swiss do not believe official maintenance cost. Other countries (Japan and South Korea) have stealth program that has similar issues. Some disagreements with F35. South Korea fighter should cost 30% of F35 maintenance. But that goes into spare parts and features, not coating... And frankly Russian program ran into a lot of troubles and cost overruns with stealth fighters. I believe Russians have better science and technical knowledge to deliver such airplane cheaply (without software integration). And they did not made any breakthrough that would magically reduce maintenance costs.
    - luuurker 3y ago
      So you don't have any evidence (solid or otherwise) that backs up your claim about the F-35 requiring a "complete overhaul" after each flight. Do we even know where the maintenance costs go to? I also fail to see how the Russians are in a better position to build a stealth plane (cheaply or otherwise) when historically they've always been behind the US in that regard. Anyway, opinions aside, big claims should be backed up with evidence and I'm not seeing anything that supports the idea that the F-35 needs that level of maintenance.
      - Thoeu388 3y ago
        I wrote "extensive overhaul". I guess better wording would be "extensive inspection and coating overhaul". Far from "quick refuel/arm and launch" original post wrote. F-35 has internal bomb bays, and those have to be opened and closed to add bombs. Those have to be resealed to maintain stealth. It has polymer based coating, how that stuff survives transsonic speeds with friction and heat? F-22 maintenance cost was quoted at $72000 per flight hour (10 years ago). Stealth used as main cause. Is F-35 somehow different or cheaper? Russians do not have cost overruns and technical feature creep, the way US does. Go ask on military forums. Problem are finances, not science. Anyway, I do not believe claim that F-35 needs extensive and expensive maitenance is somehow extraordinary. "Overhaul" of stealth coat cold be some spray on stuff and inspection. F-35 has a long track of cost overruns and proper maintenance cost is yet unknown.
- dralley 3y ago
  >Cost for operating F35 is astronomical. It's high but considering the expected number of flight hours the airframe can take, it's on par or not significantly worse than others. For example the Eurofighter is a $120 million plane with an airframe lifespan of 6,000 flight hours, whereas the F-35 is an $85 million plane with an airframe lifespan of 8,000 hours. Even with higher maintenance costs the tradeoff is still pretty favorable. Compare that to the Gripen E which is cheap to operate, but still costs $85 million, isn't stealth, and is less capable in many respects.
hylaride 3y ago
Difficult, no. But it does require different and new support mechanisms for long term use (eg not a temporary site). A lot of the controversy in Canada with our F-35 purchase is that we're going to have to completely overhaul our military airports with new maintenance and storage hangars, though honestly we didn't keep them as up to date as we should have.
- ben7799 3y ago
  That probably would have happened with any new aircraft that was purchased. Some of overhaul is buying and installing all the new tools and support systems, etc..

Thoeu388 3y ago

Right now that is not verifiable. It is a clasiffied information, only supported by claims from manufacturer. And maintaince cost is already dispuded at court in Switzerland. >It would be completely impractical to operate if you needed to completely overhaul it every flight. And? Maybe it is every 2nd or 10th flight, that does not make it much more practical. Cost for operating F35 is astronomical. Old Soviet airplanes we had could take of from grassy fields!

avereveard 3y ago
And their circle of hit probability with preprogrammed missiles is misured in hundreds meters instead of a handful. The war for which they were built never materialised, and their performances now largely obsolete. And who's going to sell you replacement parts anyway if your principal adversary is also your plane supplier? You want suppliers that don't threaten to nuke you every other week. Soviet planes came at a much higher cost...
- Thoeu388 3y ago
  I get your point. But: - right now we have fighters from Sweden (not Soviet design obviously) - Soviet planes came with technical plans, we would be probably capable to fix them by our selves to huge extend. Ukraine maintained their Soviet planes for 10 years during war. Also we manufactured some airplanes ourself, and even today Czechia produces fighter jets. - Many countries produces Soviet derived planes and spare parts. Ukraine, India, China.. Half of world operates those, and there is a huge market. - For Slovakia (and other NATO countries) that operate Migs, Russia was actually supplying spare until very recently. They sabotaged spare parts AFTER it was announced that Migs were going to be send to Ukraine, which was against the support contract.
  - KeplerBoy 3y ago
    Calling the L39 a jet fighter is a bit of a stretch. It's a trainer that can be armed and used to intercept general aviation aircraft.
    - Thoeu388 3y ago
      If F35 gets grounded again for some software error, or virtual helmet reality problem, that will be our only air defense :(
      - KeplerBoy 3y ago
        At least you guys have a backup. If the Eurofighter gets grounded Austria has no airforce, because we retired the Saab 105 without buying L39s or Grippens as replacement.
        Thoeu388 3y ago
        Honestly, I would just prefer good S300 system. At Ukraine it covered sky for almost a year. Jet fighters for air superiority are obsolete.
        dralley 3y ago
        >Jet fighters for air superiority are obsolete. Nobody in Ukraine would agree with this. For keeping Russian fighters out of your airspace, sure, ground based air defense is great. For taking your territory back, it cannot substitute for jet fighters.
        preisschild 3y ago
        S300 is only good against old jets, not against modern stealth jets such as the F-35. Modern western SAM systems such as PATRIOT and NASAMS are obviously much more capable. > Jet fighters for air superiority are obsolete. No they aren't. Why do you think Ukraine is asking for F-16s. You can deny air superiority to the enemies with good air defense, but not establish it for yourself.
luuurker 3y ago
What's your source for "it also needs extensive overhaul after every flight to maintain stealth coating"?
- Thoeu388 3y ago
  Different stealth airplanes. Some documentaries that celebrate Raptor and F35 as technical marvel (highly complex). I have not really observed any maintenance difference or break throughout between F22 and F35. And nobody really provided any solid numbers. If numbers are good, it would be easy to prove. There is a lawsuit going in Switzerland. Swiss do not believe official maintenance cost. Other countries (Japan and South Korea) have stealth program that has similar issues. Some disagreements with F35. South Korea fighter should cost 30% of F35 maintenance. But that goes into spare parts and features, not coating... And frankly Russian program ran into a lot of troubles and cost overruns with stealth fighters. I believe Russians have better science and technical knowledge to deliver such airplane cheaply (without software integration). And they did not made any breakthrough that would magically reduce maintenance costs.
  - luuurker 3y ago
    So you don't have any evidence (solid or otherwise) that backs up your claim about the F-35 requiring a "complete overhaul" after each flight. Do we even know where the maintenance costs go to? I also fail to see how the Russians are in a better position to build a stealth plane (cheaply or otherwise) when historically they've always been behind the US in that regard. Anyway, opinions aside, big claims should be backed up with evidence and I'm not seeing anything that supports the idea that the F-35 needs that level of maintenance.
    - Thoeu388 3y ago
      I wrote "extensive overhaul". I guess better wording would be "extensive inspection and coating overhaul". Far from "quick refuel/arm and launch" original post wrote. F-35 has internal bomb bays, and those have to be opened and closed to add bombs. Those have to be resealed to maintain stealth. It has polymer based coating, how that stuff survives transsonic speeds with friction and heat? F-22 maintenance cost was quoted at $72000 per flight hour (10 years ago). Stealth used as main cause. Is F-35 somehow different or cheaper? Russians do not have cost overruns and technical feature creep, the way US does. Go ask on military forums. Problem are finances, not science. Anyway, I do not believe claim that F-35 needs extensive and expensive maitenance is somehow extraordinary. "Overhaul" of stealth coat cold be some spray on stuff and inspection. F-35 has a long track of cost overruns and proper maintenance cost is yet unknown.
dralley 3y ago
>Cost for operating F35 is astronomical. It's high but considering the expected number of flight hours the airframe can take, it's on par or not significantly worse than others. For example the Eurofighter is a $120 million plane with an airframe lifespan of 6,000 flight hours, whereas the F-35 is an $85 million plane with an airframe lifespan of 8,000 hours. Even with higher maintenance costs the tradeoff is still pretty favorable. Compare that to the Gripen E which is cheap to operate, but still costs $85 million, isn't stealth, and is less capable in many respects.

hylaride 3y ago

Difficult, no. But it does require different and new support mechanisms for long term use (eg not a temporary site). A lot of the controversy in Canada with our F-35 purchase is that we're going to have to completely overhaul our military airports with new maintenance and storage hangars, though honestly we didn't keep them as up to date as we should have.

ben7799 3y ago
That probably would have happened with any new aircraft that was purchased. Some of overhaul is buying and installing all the new tools and support systems, etc..