4 ms·

Obligatory: https://archive.is/qGVNl https://archive.is/qGVNl "No alcohol" is just the new trend in a long line of dietary extremism (remember the bacon-laden

by et-al 3y ago

Obligatory: https://archive.is/qGVNl https://archive.is/qGVNl "No alcohol" is just the new trend in a long line of dietary extremism (remember the bacon-laden paleo years?) and Oster's is a voice trying to swing the pendulum back. Maybe this is a modern phenomena, but it seems moderation isn't cool and one needs to label themselves and adhere to a singular category or identity nowadays.

MuffinFlavored 3y ago
is the alternative (drinking enough to get buzzed every day) healthy?
- reducesuffering 3y ago
  If there was a limit to healthy alcohol, it would be ~3 drinks / week (on all the J curves I’ve seen, & 12oz beer / 5oz red wine, not 1.5oz liquor) Although I’m still unconvinced where in 0 - 3 is optimal
- et-al 3y ago
  I don't think that's Emily Oster's proposal, either: > But many people do enjoy a drink from time to time: a beer with friends, a cold glass of rosé in the summer, a hot toddy in front of the fire, even just a glass of white wine while cooking at the end of a long day. If we accept that pleasure has value, and that the data are muddy, then the moderation standard makes more sense.
- nicbou 3y ago
  The alternative is enjoying a drink once in a while, ot functional alcoholism.
  - vintermann 3y ago
    We know that if you recommend that, it will change the baseline for what's considered normal/responsible, leading to increase in alcoholism or alcohol-related harm more generally. I agree with the headline "Is a glass of wine harmless? Wrong question". But I think it's wrong for a very different reason. I think it's wrong because it is hyper-individualized (is it harmless for me right now?) question about a collective, social problem. It's a choice we don't actually make as individuals nearly as much as we'd like to believe.
    - spicymapotofu 3y ago
      Are you sure you're responsible for your doubt of societal drinking standards? There's been a shadow of teetotaling trying to creep into the historic human comfort habit, ever since the failure of prohibitionism. Abstention is just an insidious branch of social overreach, where my homemade beer is equated with the old soak waiting for the liquor store to open every day, and for whose benefit? I present this not just to mock your position. I find your argument myopic, that you take drinkers for sheep ignorant of the world around them. For all the people that may be true of, none of them will be enlightened by you here - and this leaves your argument a holier-than-thou sermon preached to the choir. We know we aren't immune to propaganda, but if you want to argue that alcoholism is a socially-mediated disease, you must not bury the lede.
      - vintermann 3y ago
        Try to be more succinct, please. I find it easy to say that not drinking is a conscious choice. I think it's much harder for you to argue that drinking this much, but not that much, is a conscious choice. Obviously neither of our choices are made in a vacuum. Alcoholism is not a disease. It's a description of behaviour, often abused as an explanation of behaviour. Drinking to excess is obviously socially motivated in most cases, I don't think I have to argue that? Either way, if you look up the catalog definitions of addiction/alcoholism it's easy to see they're socially relative - many of the criteria are effectively about whether society has a problem with your drinking/behavior. And if they drink more themselves, they'll probably have less of that.
dmvdoug 3y ago
Really? I had no idea Teetotaling was the new in-thing. Welcome, friends! (For me, it was a choice based on my own mental health plus a family history of alcoholism on both sides, but I surely never thought that not drinking would become a popular thing, given how awkward people who drink have historically tried to make it for me, since I choose not to.)
- gnicholas 3y ago
  Yeah, a couple friends recently told me they're teetotaling now, based on research (sent by another friend) that there is no safe amount of alcohol consumption. I talked with them for a while, but never could determine how exactly researchers had determined that 1-2 drinks/mo, for example, is less healthy than 0.
  - dmvdoug 3y ago
    Probably doesn’t help that it seems like nutrition research does 180s every so often on pretty much every reported “finding.” That has probably as much to do with the hype surrounding actual research though, so I don’t necessarily blame the researchers.
- hattmall 3y ago
  It definitely is, weed, nicotine vaping, and social media addiction are the replacements. Right now, coming off of the pandemic it's trendy. The bar / music scene took a hit and really hasn't yet recovered. Alcohol is the foundation of society though and humans have specifically evolved to be able to process it so the trend will inevitably reverse I'm sure. Honestly as someone who enjoys alcohol and will readily espouse the many benefits, pre-pandemic it had gotten to be a bit much. The whole seltzers, wine-mom, craft beer, bourbon flights etc made it where there was almost nothing you could do that didn't specifically revolve around drinking. I like to drink, but I don't like to feel obligated to drink just to do it. I want to drink and have the alcohol enhance other enjoyable activities. I don't want to drink and just talk about beer. Going to a brewery IMO is about the worst way to spend an afternoon.
  - 3y ago
deafpolygon 3y ago
It's not new. Teetotaling has been around for hundreds and hundreds of years. The first time it's been written down as a practice was in 1832. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teetotalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teetotalism Btw, "Globally, almost half of adults do not drink alcohol (excluding those who used to drink but have stopped)." It's not that weird. But western societies have made it seem like having the 'occasional' drink 3 times a week a 'normal' thing.
asielen 3y ago
I have seen more absolutist views about drinking on this and other websites in the last few months. I totally understand that there are many valid reasons for not wanting to drink at all, but this short article resonates with me. As someone who drinks maybe 2-3 drinks a week (usually one night a week and then not at all the rest of the week). I get immense social benefit from it. It helps me act like a "normal human". The occasional happy hour with coworkers or friends has helped my mental health. Also, honestly taste is a big reason I do drink when I do. I love cocktails and there are many interesting flavors you just can't find without alcohol. Sure I could hang out with them without drinking, but honestly, the alcohol helps us unwind and let down our guards after work hours. We are mostly quiet people, but we have built stronger connections that survive beyond the happy happy hours, because of the happy hours. And not all of the group always drinks, no one pressures them to, they are welcome to join and we all love the growth of mocktails, it allows the non-drinkers to feel included and gives those of us who do drink an option to take a break. I realize there are many out there who cannot enjoy in moderation and the studies give them more reason to not imbibe. I support that, no one needs to drink and no one should feel uncomfortable for not drinking. I also know it isn't physically healthy for me--my stomach often regrets it the next morning (even after only a couple beers, wine and liquor are easier on it). Everything in moderation.

by et-al 3y ago

MuffinFlavored 3y ago

is the alternative (drinking enough to get buzzed every day) healthy?

reducesuffering 3y ago
If there was a limit to healthy alcohol, it would be ~3 drinks / week (on all the J curves I’ve seen, & 12oz beer / 5oz red wine, not 1.5oz liquor) Although I’m still unconvinced where in 0 - 3 is optimal
et-al 3y ago
I don't think that's Emily Oster's proposal, either: > But many people do enjoy a drink from time to time: a beer with friends, a cold glass of rosé in the summer, a hot toddy in front of the fire, even just a glass of white wine while cooking at the end of a long day. If we accept that pleasure has value, and that the data are muddy, then the moderation standard makes more sense.
nicbou 3y ago
The alternative is enjoying a drink once in a while, ot functional alcoholism.
- vintermann 3y ago
  We know that if you recommend that, it will change the baseline for what's considered normal/responsible, leading to increase in alcoholism or alcohol-related harm more generally. I agree with the headline "Is a glass of wine harmless? Wrong question". But I think it's wrong for a very different reason. I think it's wrong because it is hyper-individualized (is it harmless for me right now?) question about a collective, social problem. It's a choice we don't actually make as individuals nearly as much as we'd like to believe.
  - spicymapotofu 3y ago
    Are you sure you're responsible for your doubt of societal drinking standards? There's been a shadow of teetotaling trying to creep into the historic human comfort habit, ever since the failure of prohibitionism. Abstention is just an insidious branch of social overreach, where my homemade beer is equated with the old soak waiting for the liquor store to open every day, and for whose benefit? I present this not just to mock your position. I find your argument myopic, that you take drinkers for sheep ignorant of the world around them. For all the people that may be true of, none of them will be enlightened by you here - and this leaves your argument a holier-than-thou sermon preached to the choir. We know we aren't immune to propaganda, but if you want to argue that alcoholism is a socially-mediated disease, you must not bury the lede.
    - vintermann 3y ago
      Try to be more succinct, please. I find it easy to say that not drinking is a conscious choice. I think it's much harder for you to argue that drinking this much, but not that much, is a conscious choice. Obviously neither of our choices are made in a vacuum. Alcoholism is not a disease. It's a description of behaviour, often abused as an explanation of behaviour. Drinking to excess is obviously socially motivated in most cases, I don't think I have to argue that? Either way, if you look up the catalog definitions of addiction/alcoholism it's easy to see they're socially relative - many of the criteria are effectively about whether society has a problem with your drinking/behavior. And if they drink more themselves, they'll probably have less of that.

dmvdoug 3y ago

Really? I had no idea Teetotaling was the new in-thing. Welcome, friends! (For me, it was a choice based on my own mental health plus a family history of alcoholism on both sides, but I surely never thought that not drinking would become a popular thing, given how awkward people who drink have historically tried to make it for me, since I choose not to.)

gnicholas 3y ago
Yeah, a couple friends recently told me they're teetotaling now, based on research (sent by another friend) that there is no safe amount of alcohol consumption. I talked with them for a while, but never could determine how exactly researchers had determined that 1-2 drinks/mo, for example, is less healthy than 0.
- dmvdoug 3y ago
  Probably doesn’t help that it seems like nutrition research does 180s every so often on pretty much every reported “finding.” That has probably as much to do with the hype surrounding actual research though, so I don’t necessarily blame the researchers.
hattmall 3y ago
It definitely is, weed, nicotine vaping, and social media addiction are the replacements. Right now, coming off of the pandemic it's trendy. The bar / music scene took a hit and really hasn't yet recovered. Alcohol is the foundation of society though and humans have specifically evolved to be able to process it so the trend will inevitably reverse I'm sure. Honestly as someone who enjoys alcohol and will readily espouse the many benefits, pre-pandemic it had gotten to be a bit much. The whole seltzers, wine-mom, craft beer, bourbon flights etc made it where there was almost nothing you could do that didn't specifically revolve around drinking. I like to drink, but I don't like to feel obligated to drink just to do it. I want to drink and have the alcohol enhance other enjoyable activities. I don't want to drink and just talk about beer. Going to a brewery IMO is about the worst way to spend an afternoon.
- 3y ago

deafpolygon 3y ago

It's not new. Teetotaling has been around for hundreds and hundreds of years. The first time it's been written down as a practice was in 1832. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teetotalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teetotalism Btw, "Globally, almost half of adults do not drink alcohol (excluding those who used to drink but have stopped)." It's not that weird. But western societies have made it seem like having the 'occasional' drink 3 times a week a 'normal' thing.

asielen 3y ago

I have seen more absolutist views about drinking on this and other websites in the last few months. I totally understand that there are many valid reasons for not wanting to drink at all, but this short article resonates with me. As someone who drinks maybe 2-3 drinks a week (usually one night a week and then not at all the rest of the week). I get immense social benefit from it. It helps me act like a "normal human". The occasional happy hour with coworkers or friends has helped my mental health. Also, honestly taste is a big reason I do drink when I do. I love cocktails and there are many interesting flavors you just can't find without alcohol. Sure I could hang out with them without drinking, but honestly, the alcohol helps us unwind and let down our guards after work hours. We are mostly quiet people, but we have built stronger connections that survive beyond the happy happy hours, because of the happy hours. And not all of the group always drinks, no one pressures them to, they are welcome to join and we all love the growth of mocktails, it allows the non-drinkers to feel included and gives those of us who do drink an option to take a break. I realize there are many out there who cannot enjoy in moderation and the studies give them more reason to not imbibe. I support that, no one needs to drink and no one should feel uncomfortable for not drinking. I also know it isn't physically healthy for me--my stomach often regrets it the next morning (even after only a couple beers, wine and liquor are easier on it). Everything in moderation.