4 ms·

I think it might be a little more nuanced than that. I have a friend who's still alive today because he was driving a Lexus SUV when a Honda Accord blew throug

by 13of40 3y ago

I think it might be a little more nuanced than that. I have a friend who's still alive today because he was driving a Lexus SUV when a Honda Accord blew through a red light and collided with him at speed. Should he downgrade his car so he's more vulnerable next time?

COGlory 3y ago
Everyone should constantly buy a bigger car than what everyone else is buying. It's the only way to stay safe.
- masklinn 3y ago
  Not me I daily drive a GTK Boxer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_(armoured_fighting_vehicle) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_(armoured_fighting_vehic...) (I don’t actually drive a gtk boxer but it’s the logical conclusion of this dumb trend).
emgeee 3y ago
Tragedy of the commons situation, only way out is through regulation
- ngcc_hk 3y ago
  In general there are many way out. Open source in IT area is one of the possible exist. Carbon tax is also market solution. … How about producing one using e in USA. Or … Regulation meant what and how … it may be necessary. It may need to over-regulate. And who regulate the regulator. Abd how about agency problem. Mix solution … if it is an easy situation you may not know there is a problem usually.
fragmede 3y ago
Why frame it as a downgrade? Bigger isn't necessarily better. Cars are a highly regulated product, with lots of testing that happens, and there are evolving standards. In a crash, I'd much rather be in a 2009 Chevrolet Malibu and not a 1959 Chevrolet Bel Air, watch this video for why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB6oefRKWmY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB6oefRKWmY. Where the 2023 Honda Accord has a rating of "good"* from IIHS on the updated side impact test, and NHTSA's rating for the 2022 model for side crash is 5 stars** (2023 data not yet available), it seems entirely likely that your friend would also still be alive today if they were also in a Honda Accord. The arms race for bigger and bigger vehicles is just that - an arms race. I don't want to walk or drive in the world of Mad Max, where everyone drives semi-trucks and have spikes all over them to protect the inhabitants of a vehicle. It should also be noted that bigger isn't automatically better. For the 2022 side impact test by IIHS, the Honda Passport, Honda Pilot, Hyundai Palisade, Jeep Wrangler 4-door, Kia Telluride and Nissan Murano SUVs all received "marginal" ratings***. Prior to 2011, SUVs weren't even tested for side impact ratings. * https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/honda/accord-4-door-sedan/2023 https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/honda/accord-4-door-sed... ** https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2022/HONDA/ACCORD/4%252520DR/FWD https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2022/HONDA/ACCORD/4%252520DR/F... *** https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/most-midsize-suvs-perform-well-in-new-side-test https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/most-midsize-suvs-perform-w...
- ____jes 3y ago
  Unfortunately weight _is_ generally a predictor of occupant safety. IIHS says: “Frontal crash test results can't be used to compare vehicle performance across weight classes.… Given equivalent frontal ratings, the heavier of two vehicles usually offers better protection in real-world crashes.” https://www.iihs.org/ratings/about-our-tests https://www.iihs.org/ratings/about-our-tests
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    I agree. My dad always told me that, in a hypothetical situation where I'm going to crash and I have a choice in the kind of car I'm driving, to always pick the bigger car than the other guy. Bigger cars are safer, for better or worse. Those Ford F-350s will, in general, survive crashes and protect the occupants better than something like a Toyota Camry.
    - smcl 3y ago
      Hasn't this caused an arms race of sorts where these trucks get bigger and bigger to the point where now some models have worse visibility than enormous M1 Abrams tanks: https://carbuzz.com/news/the-abrams-m1-tank-has-better-visibility-than-a-ford-super-duty https://carbuzz.com/news/the-abrams-m1-tank-has-better-visib...
      - Dalewyn 3y ago
        It's definitely one of the reasons cars in general have gotten bigger, you can't deny that better survivability in crashes is good marketing material. Trucks are just among the larger of them.
        mlyle 3y ago
        Yes, but it's only better survivability in two-car crashes, and it makes the overall survivability worse. The social cost is greater than the private benefit. IOW, it's a market failure (externality).
seabird 3y ago
If you reversed the vehicles the outcome would be the same. The size differential has to be massive for it to matter. Modern safety requirements are stringent and you wouldn't believe how much a small sedan can take in a crash. The most important safety feature in a vehicle is performance, and SUVs (especially mid and full size) are outright worse, regardless of what your average American thinks.
- ilyt 3y ago
  Performance need driving skills to be used
  - seabird 3y ago
    Good driving skills should be a requirement for driving.
- kalleboo 3y ago
  > The most important safety feature in a vehicle is performance Do you have a source for this? I'm honestly curious. In every near-miss I've had in traffic, the only performance that would have helped is braking performance. And I drive a Kei car as a sole family car. On long highway road trips.
  - seabird 3y ago
    My point of view came from personal experience, but it's encoded in all sorts of safety requirements concerning tires, brakes, suspension, etc. Good handling is also very important for safety. SUVs before stability control are a perfect example of this.
caconym_ 3y ago
With respect, this is a textbook example of anecdotal thinking. What if your friend was still alive today because he was driving his lifted Dodge Ram 2500 when he ran a red light twelve beers deep and T-boned an Accord, his aftermarket steel bumper severing the B-pillar and decapitating all four occupants (mother, father, two daughters)? Would you still imply that his choice of vehicle was defensible because it increased his chances of surviving that collision? Ideally humans would simply not drive, but that's not feasible in the world we currently live in, so everybody should be on a level playing field designed not only to evenly distribute risk but also to minimize it. Like I said in my original post, consumer pickups as they exist in America today are measurably incompatible with the public good.

by 13of40 3y ago

COGlory 3y ago

Everyone should constantly buy a bigger car than what everyone else is buying. It's the only way to stay safe.

masklinn 3y ago
Not me I daily drive a GTK Boxer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_(armoured_fighting_vehicle) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_(armoured_fighting_vehic...) (I don’t actually drive a gtk boxer but it’s the logical conclusion of this dumb trend).

emgeee 3y ago

Tragedy of the commons situation, only way out is through regulation

ngcc_hk 3y ago
In general there are many way out. Open source in IT area is one of the possible exist. Carbon tax is also market solution. … How about producing one using e in USA. Or … Regulation meant what and how … it may be necessary. It may need to over-regulate. And who regulate the regulator. Abd how about agency problem. Mix solution … if it is an easy situation you may not know there is a problem usually.

fragmede 3y ago

Why frame it as a downgrade? Bigger isn't necessarily better. Cars are a highly regulated product, with lots of testing that happens, and there are evolving standards. In a crash, I'd much rather be in a 2009 Chevrolet Malibu and not a 1959 Chevrolet Bel Air, watch this video for why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB6oefRKWmY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB6oefRKWmY. Where the 2023 Honda Accord has a rating of "good"* from IIHS on the updated side impact test, and NHTSA's rating for the 2022 model for side crash is 5 stars** (2023 data not yet available), it seems entirely likely that your friend would also still be alive today if they were also in a Honda Accord. The arms race for bigger and bigger vehicles is just that - an arms race. I don't want to walk or drive in the world of Mad Max, where everyone drives semi-trucks and have spikes all over them to protect the inhabitants of a vehicle. It should also be noted that bigger isn't automatically better. For the 2022 side impact test by IIHS, the Honda Passport, Honda Pilot, Hyundai Palisade, Jeep Wrangler 4-door, Kia Telluride and Nissan Murano SUVs all received "marginal" ratings***. Prior to 2011, SUVs weren't even tested for side impact ratings. * https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/honda/accord-4-door-sedan/2023 https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/honda/accord-4-door-sed... ** https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2022/HONDA/ACCORD/4%252520DR/FWD https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2022/HONDA/ACCORD/4%252520DR/F... *** https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/most-midsize-suvs-perform-well-in-new-side-test https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/most-midsize-suvs-perform-w...

____jes 3y ago
Unfortunately weight _is_ generally a predictor of occupant safety. IIHS says: “Frontal crash test results can't be used to compare vehicle performance across weight classes.… Given equivalent frontal ratings, the heavier of two vehicles usually offers better protection in real-world crashes.” https://www.iihs.org/ratings/about-our-tests https://www.iihs.org/ratings/about-our-tests
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  I agree. My dad always told me that, in a hypothetical situation where I'm going to crash and I have a choice in the kind of car I'm driving, to always pick the bigger car than the other guy. Bigger cars are safer, for better or worse. Those Ford F-350s will, in general, survive crashes and protect the occupants better than something like a Toyota Camry.
  - smcl 3y ago
    Hasn't this caused an arms race of sorts where these trucks get bigger and bigger to the point where now some models have worse visibility than enormous M1 Abrams tanks: https://carbuzz.com/news/the-abrams-m1-tank-has-better-visibility-than-a-ford-super-duty https://carbuzz.com/news/the-abrams-m1-tank-has-better-visib...
    - Dalewyn 3y ago
      It's definitely one of the reasons cars in general have gotten bigger, you can't deny that better survivability in crashes is good marketing material. Trucks are just among the larger of them.
      - mlyle 3y ago
        Yes, but it's only better survivability in two-car crashes, and it makes the overall survivability worse. The social cost is greater than the private benefit. IOW, it's a market failure (externality).

seabird 3y ago

If you reversed the vehicles the outcome would be the same. The size differential has to be massive for it to matter. Modern safety requirements are stringent and you wouldn't believe how much a small sedan can take in a crash. The most important safety feature in a vehicle is performance, and SUVs (especially mid and full size) are outright worse, regardless of what your average American thinks.

ilyt 3y ago
Performance need driving skills to be used
- seabird 3y ago
  Good driving skills should be a requirement for driving.
kalleboo 3y ago
> The most important safety feature in a vehicle is performance Do you have a source for this? I'm honestly curious. In every near-miss I've had in traffic, the only performance that would have helped is braking performance. And I drive a Kei car as a sole family car. On long highway road trips.
- seabird 3y ago
  My point of view came from personal experience, but it's encoded in all sorts of safety requirements concerning tires, brakes, suspension, etc. Good handling is also very important for safety. SUVs before stability control are a perfect example of this.

caconym_ 3y ago

With respect, this is a textbook example of anecdotal thinking. What if your friend was still alive today because he was driving his lifted Dodge Ram 2500 when he ran a red light twelve beers deep and T-boned an Accord, his aftermarket steel bumper severing the B-pillar and decapitating all four occupants (mother, father, two daughters)? Would you still imply that his choice of vehicle was defensible because it increased his chances of surviving that collision? Ideally humans would simply not drive, but that's not feasible in the world we currently live in, so everybody should be on a level playing field designed not only to evenly distribute risk but also to minimize it. Like I said in my original post, consumer pickups as they exist in America today are measurably incompatible with the public good.