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> The thing that boggles my mind his how this 25-year-old grandfathering thing works. I think it's totally fair to allow old vehicles on the road that may not c

> The thing that boggles my mind his how this 25-year-old grandfathering thing works. I think it's totally fair to allow old vehicles on the road that may not comply with today's standards, but did comply when they were originally made and titled (in the US). But there's no good reason we need to allow people to import old, unsafe vehicles like this. If safety was a primary concern for U.S. regulators, large consumer SUVs and trucks would not exist in their current form. As of ~2019 (the last such study I know of) trucks killed occupants of other vehicles at 2.5x the rate of cars and "SUVs" (an increasingly useless category as it includes everything from small unibody crossovers to enormous body-on-frame Canyonero-style monstrosities). I am not aware of any comparable headline figure for how pedestrians fare against them but I would put money on their pedestrian safety performance also being atrocious. They are quite literally an atrocity against the American people, a public health hazard of the first order, and our regulators evidently do not give one single shit. Through that lens the opinion you've expressed here—that people should not be allowed to drive cars that make them more unsafe—is extremely ironic, because the semiliterate chuds who support the unrestrained escalation of larger and deadlier and larger and deadlier vehicles on public roads make the exact opposite "argument" as a justification of why they should be allowed: freedom, personal responsibility, etcetera. I elide the details because it's mad-libs anyway, not any kind of coherent position unless one discards the notion of a social contract entirely. I'm not suggesting you yourself hold an opinion like that, but it seems a uniquely American dichotomy that one is not allowed to drive a car that makes oneself more likely to die, but there is absolutely no problem with driving a car that's several times more likely to kill somebody else.

13of40 3y ago
I think it might be a little more nuanced than that. I have a friend who's still alive today because he was driving a Lexus SUV when a Honda Accord blew through a red light and collided with him at speed. Should he downgrade his car so he's more vulnerable next time?
- COGlory 3y ago
  Everyone should constantly buy a bigger car than what everyone else is buying. It's the only way to stay safe.
  - masklinn 3y ago
    Not me I daily drive a GTK Boxer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_(armoured_fighting_vehicle) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_(armoured_fighting_vehic...) (I don’t actually drive a gtk boxer but it’s the logical conclusion of this dumb trend).
- emgeee 3y ago
  Tragedy of the commons situation, only way out is through regulation
  - ngcc_hk 3y ago
    In general there are many way out. Open source in IT area is one of the possible exist. Carbon tax is also market solution. … How about producing one using e in USA. Or … Regulation meant what and how … it may be necessary. It may need to over-regulate. And who regulate the regulator. Abd how about agency problem. Mix solution … if it is an easy situation you may not know there is a problem usually.
- fragmede 3y ago
  Why frame it as a downgrade? Bigger isn't necessarily better. Cars are a highly regulated product, with lots of testing that happens, and there are evolving standards. In a crash, I'd much rather be in a 2009 Chevrolet Malibu and not a 1959 Chevrolet Bel Air, watch this video for why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB6oefRKWmY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB6oefRKWmY. Where the 2023 Honda Accord has a rating of "good"* from IIHS on the updated side impact test, and NHTSA's rating for the 2022 model for side crash is 5 stars** (2023 data not yet available), it seems entirely likely that your friend would also still be alive today if they were also in a Honda Accord. The arms race for bigger and bigger vehicles is just that - an arms race. I don't want to walk or drive in the world of Mad Max, where everyone drives semi-trucks and have spikes all over them to protect the inhabitants of a vehicle. It should also be noted that bigger isn't automatically better. For the 2022 side impact test by IIHS, the Honda Passport, Honda Pilot, Hyundai Palisade, Jeep Wrangler 4-door, Kia Telluride and Nissan Murano SUVs all received "marginal" ratings***. Prior to 2011, SUVs weren't even tested for side impact ratings. * https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/honda/accord-4-door-sedan/2023 https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/honda/accord-4-door-sed... ** https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2022/HONDA/ACCORD/4%252520DR/FWD https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2022/HONDA/ACCORD/4%252520DR/F... *** https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/most-midsize-suvs-perform-well-in-new-side-test https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/most-midsize-suvs-perform-w...
  - ____jes 3y ago
    Unfortunately weight _is_ generally a predictor of occupant safety. IIHS says: “Frontal crash test results can't be used to compare vehicle performance across weight classes.… Given equivalent frontal ratings, the heavier of two vehicles usually offers better protection in real-world crashes.” https://www.iihs.org/ratings/about-our-tests https://www.iihs.org/ratings/about-our-tests
    - Dalewyn 3y ago
      I agree. My dad always told me that, in a hypothetical situation where I'm going to crash and I have a choice in the kind of car I'm driving, to always pick the bigger car than the other guy. Bigger cars are safer, for better or worse. Those Ford F-350s will, in general, survive crashes and protect the occupants better than something like a Toyota Camry.
- seabird 3y ago
  If you reversed the vehicles the outcome would be the same. The size differential has to be massive for it to matter. Modern safety requirements are stringent and you wouldn't believe how much a small sedan can take in a crash. The most important safety feature in a vehicle is performance, and SUVs (especially mid and full size) are outright worse, regardless of what your average American thinks.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    Performance need driving skills to be used
    - seabird 3y ago
      Good driving skills should be a requirement for driving.
  - kalleboo 3y ago
    > The most important safety feature in a vehicle is performance Do you have a source for this? I'm honestly curious. In every near-miss I've had in traffic, the only performance that would have helped is braking performance. And I drive a Kei car as a sole family car. On long highway road trips.
    - seabird 3y ago
      My point of view came from personal experience, but it's encoded in all sorts of safety requirements concerning tires, brakes, suspension, etc. Good handling is also very important for safety. SUVs before stability control are a perfect example of this.
- caconym_ 3y ago
  With respect, this is a textbook example of anecdotal thinking. What if your friend was still alive today because he was driving his lifted Dodge Ram 2500 when he ran a red light twelve beers deep and T-boned an Accord, his aftermarket steel bumper severing the B-pillar and decapitating all four occupants (mother, father, two daughters)? Would you still imply that his choice of vehicle was defensible because it increased his chances of surviving that collision? Ideally humans would simply not drive, but that's not feasible in the world we currently live in, so everybody should be on a level playing field designed not only to evenly distribute risk but also to minimize it. Like I said in my original post, consumer pickups as they exist in America today are measurably incompatible with the public good.
Swizec 3y ago
> I am not aware of any comparable headline figure for how pedestrians fare against them but I would put money on their pedestrian safety performance USA is world no1 at killing pedestrians. Most pedestrian deaths per mile driven of any country. 7000 pedestrians die in traffic collisions annually. Freakonomics just started a 3-part series on this. https://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-is-the-u-s-so-good-at-killing-pedestrians/ https://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-is-the-u-s-so-good-at-k...
- CorrectHorseBat 3y ago
  If I look at the numbers [1] I highly doubt the US is even in the top 50. It's probably just the most pedestrian deaths per mile driven of any country that reports pedestrian deaths per mile driven. Edit: look good at the deaths per mile driven, most countries with horrible numbers in other columns don't have any data in that column which is why the USA ends up as 4th. Look at any other statistic and you'll see the USA is far from the worst. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic...
  - randunel 3y ago
    The comment you replied to claimed > Most pedestrian deaths per mile driven of any country You said > If I look at the numbers [1] I highly doubt the US is even in the top 50 The table in the link [1] you shared, when sorted by deaths per mile driven, ranks the USA (2021 data) 5th in the world, with Mexico (2013 data) being 1st.
    - CorrectHorseBat 3y ago
      Yes, but that's only because most countries with horrible numbers don't have any data in that column and end up at the bottom. If you sort by anything else the USA is far far from the worst country.
      - ilyt 3y ago
Aloha 3y ago
For those who have not heard of the Canyonero reference - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI_Jl5WFQkA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI_Jl5WFQkA

13of40 3y ago

I think it might be a little more nuanced than that. I have a friend who's still alive today because he was driving a Lexus SUV when a Honda Accord blew through a red light and collided with him at speed. Should he downgrade his car so he's more vulnerable next time?

COGlory 3y ago
Everyone should constantly buy a bigger car than what everyone else is buying. It's the only way to stay safe.
- masklinn 3y ago
  Not me I daily drive a GTK Boxer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_(armoured_fighting_vehicle) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_(armoured_fighting_vehic...) (I don’t actually drive a gtk boxer but it’s the logical conclusion of this dumb trend).
emgeee 3y ago
Tragedy of the commons situation, only way out is through regulation
- ngcc_hk 3y ago
  In general there are many way out. Open source in IT area is one of the possible exist. Carbon tax is also market solution. … How about producing one using e in USA. Or … Regulation meant what and how … it may be necessary. It may need to over-regulate. And who regulate the regulator. Abd how about agency problem. Mix solution … if it is an easy situation you may not know there is a problem usually.
fragmede 3y ago
Why frame it as a downgrade? Bigger isn't necessarily better. Cars are a highly regulated product, with lots of testing that happens, and there are evolving standards. In a crash, I'd much rather be in a 2009 Chevrolet Malibu and not a 1959 Chevrolet Bel Air, watch this video for why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB6oefRKWmY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB6oefRKWmY. Where the 2023 Honda Accord has a rating of "good"* from IIHS on the updated side impact test, and NHTSA's rating for the 2022 model for side crash is 5 stars** (2023 data not yet available), it seems entirely likely that your friend would also still be alive today if they were also in a Honda Accord. The arms race for bigger and bigger vehicles is just that - an arms race. I don't want to walk or drive in the world of Mad Max, where everyone drives semi-trucks and have spikes all over them to protect the inhabitants of a vehicle. It should also be noted that bigger isn't automatically better. For the 2022 side impact test by IIHS, the Honda Passport, Honda Pilot, Hyundai Palisade, Jeep Wrangler 4-door, Kia Telluride and Nissan Murano SUVs all received "marginal" ratings***. Prior to 2011, SUVs weren't even tested for side impact ratings. * https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/honda/accord-4-door-sedan/2023 https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/honda/accord-4-door-sed... ** https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2022/HONDA/ACCORD/4%252520DR/FWD https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2022/HONDA/ACCORD/4%252520DR/F... *** https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/most-midsize-suvs-perform-well-in-new-side-test https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/most-midsize-suvs-perform-w...
- ____jes 3y ago
  Unfortunately weight _is_ generally a predictor of occupant safety. IIHS says: “Frontal crash test results can't be used to compare vehicle performance across weight classes.… Given equivalent frontal ratings, the heavier of two vehicles usually offers better protection in real-world crashes.” https://www.iihs.org/ratings/about-our-tests https://www.iihs.org/ratings/about-our-tests
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    I agree. My dad always told me that, in a hypothetical situation where I'm going to crash and I have a choice in the kind of car I'm driving, to always pick the bigger car than the other guy. Bigger cars are safer, for better or worse. Those Ford F-350s will, in general, survive crashes and protect the occupants better than something like a Toyota Camry.
seabird 3y ago
If you reversed the vehicles the outcome would be the same. The size differential has to be massive for it to matter. Modern safety requirements are stringent and you wouldn't believe how much a small sedan can take in a crash. The most important safety feature in a vehicle is performance, and SUVs (especially mid and full size) are outright worse, regardless of what your average American thinks.
- ilyt 3y ago
  Performance need driving skills to be used
  - seabird 3y ago
    Good driving skills should be a requirement for driving.
- kalleboo 3y ago
  > The most important safety feature in a vehicle is performance Do you have a source for this? I'm honestly curious. In every near-miss I've had in traffic, the only performance that would have helped is braking performance. And I drive a Kei car as a sole family car. On long highway road trips.
  - seabird 3y ago
    My point of view came from personal experience, but it's encoded in all sorts of safety requirements concerning tires, brakes, suspension, etc. Good handling is also very important for safety. SUVs before stability control are a perfect example of this.
caconym_ 3y ago
With respect, this is a textbook example of anecdotal thinking. What if your friend was still alive today because he was driving his lifted Dodge Ram 2500 when he ran a red light twelve beers deep and T-boned an Accord, his aftermarket steel bumper severing the B-pillar and decapitating all four occupants (mother, father, two daughters)? Would you still imply that his choice of vehicle was defensible because it increased his chances of surviving that collision? Ideally humans would simply not drive, but that's not feasible in the world we currently live in, so everybody should be on a level playing field designed not only to evenly distribute risk but also to minimize it. Like I said in my original post, consumer pickups as they exist in America today are measurably incompatible with the public good.

Swizec 3y ago

> I am not aware of any comparable headline figure for how pedestrians fare against them but I would put money on their pedestrian safety performance USA is world no1 at killing pedestrians. Most pedestrian deaths per mile driven of any country. 7000 pedestrians die in traffic collisions annually. Freakonomics just started a 3-part series on this. https://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-is-the-u-s-so-good-at-killing-pedestrians/ https://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-is-the-u-s-so-good-at-k...

CorrectHorseBat 3y ago
If I look at the numbers [1] I highly doubt the US is even in the top 50. It's probably just the most pedestrian deaths per mile driven of any country that reports pedestrian deaths per mile driven. Edit: look good at the deaths per mile driven, most countries with horrible numbers in other columns don't have any data in that column which is why the USA ends up as 4th. Look at any other statistic and you'll see the USA is far from the worst. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic...
- randunel 3y ago
  The comment you replied to claimed > Most pedestrian deaths per mile driven of any country You said > If I look at the numbers [1] I highly doubt the US is even in the top 50 The table in the link [1] you shared, when sorted by deaths per mile driven, ranks the USA (2021 data) 5th in the world, with Mexico (2013 data) being 1st.
  - CorrectHorseBat 3y ago
    Yes, but that's only because most countries with horrible numbers don't have any data in that column and end up at the bottom. If you sort by anything else the USA is far far from the worst country.
    - ilyt 3y ago

Aloha 3y ago

For those who have not heard of the Canyonero reference - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI_Jl5WFQkA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI_Jl5WFQkA