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I mean we already see the issues with international supply chains failing during covid, and we haven’t even really seen the significant impacts from climate cha

I mean we already see the issues with international supply chains failing during covid, and we haven’t even really seen the significant impacts from climate change. Yeah, most people on HN aren’t going to really need this in the next 5-10 years as we’re predominantly in locations that will be maintained the longest. What about people in countries that already barely have functioning supply chains? This could be immediately useful for them.

hillytop 3y ago
Immediately useful how exactly?
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Very low hardware requirements, so basic industrial control at the level where you'd otherwise use an Arduino or so but on scavenged hardware. Forth is ridiculously simple to get an implementation running. https://github.com/nornagon/jonesforth/blob/master/jonesforth.S https://github.com/nornagon/jonesforth/blob/master/jonesfort... Is a nice starting point. It's obviously not as compact as say 'Brainfuck' but it is far more versatile.
hutzlibu 3y ago
"This could be immediately useful for them." That's the thing: there are already many hackers and makers working on all kinds of ways to reuse old electronic. If they cannot really use this now - who can after a collaps?
- tired_star_nrg 3y ago
  Sorry, I’m not following. Are you saying they are able to use this now? Or that it can’t be used now?
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    The author is saying his project has only use after a collaps. I doubt this project will be useful after a collapse, if no one can make use of it today.
anigbrowl 3y ago
I think the overlap between 'people in civilizational collapse zones without reliable internet access' and 'people with Forth and general computing skills sufficient to expertly operate random hardware' is very narrow indeed. It's a cool project, but the complexity of most hardware is such that solo reverse engineering it for practical purposes is likely a fictional scenario. The chances of an engineering community that can be productive under civilization-ending pressures also seems pretty unlikely. If you have technology skills and reasonably expect to experience some sort of apocalyptic scenario, ISTM you'd be better off with a solar charger, a few rugged smartphones, and several SD cards containing backups of Wikipedia and as much reference material as you can collect. Getting to a better location (either by traveling or improving a deficient one) is likely to take up most of your mental and physical energy, and electronics are in the 'nice to have' part of your inventory, below weapons, tools, and basic survival supplies. If you want to go really cheap and low power, consider stocking up on ESP32 devices, which are super-capable and can be had for only a few $ each.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  > If you have technology skills and reasonably expect to experience some sort of apocalyptic scenario, ISTM you'd be better off with a solar charger, a few rugged smartphones, and several SD cards containing backups of Wikipedia and as much reference material as you can collect. That will buy you a decade. I'd go for a paper version of the stuff that you think is important enough to haul around in physical form for many decades and immediately start spreading these around in numbers large enough to ensure that some copies would survive. And even that assumes literacy, some level of schooling to survive, and enough specialization to be able to set aside time for people to study all of this. The best mechanism for something like that would probably be a priesthood of sorts... they tend to be long lived and good at preserving knowledge (and eventually to use it as a power base for domination of the unwashed masses which they work hard to keep dumb but that's already many steps down the line).
  - anigbrowl 3y ago
    Good points. I think it's been linked on HN before, but one of the most robust libraries in the world has its texts engraved on wooden blocks: https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/737/ https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/737/ Deciding what to conserve and making it succinct enough to be manageable but detailed enough to useful actually seems like a great use case for AI. I'm a little more optimistic than you on the timeframe, as I have electronics that are decades old and work fine. Of course, if they suddenly stop it will be a source of disappointment rather than survival anxiety.

hillytop 3y ago

Immediately useful how exactly?

jacquesm 3y ago
Very low hardware requirements, so basic industrial control at the level where you'd otherwise use an Arduino or so but on scavenged hardware. Forth is ridiculously simple to get an implementation running. https://github.com/nornagon/jonesforth/blob/master/jonesforth.S https://github.com/nornagon/jonesforth/blob/master/jonesfort... Is a nice starting point. It's obviously not as compact as say 'Brainfuck' but it is far more versatile.

hutzlibu 3y ago

"This could be immediately useful for them." That's the thing: there are already many hackers and makers working on all kinds of ways to reuse old electronic. If they cannot really use this now - who can after a collaps?

tired_star_nrg 3y ago
Sorry, I’m not following. Are you saying they are able to use this now? Or that it can’t be used now?
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  The author is saying his project has only use after a collaps. I doubt this project will be useful after a collapse, if no one can make use of it today.

anigbrowl 3y ago

I think the overlap between 'people in civilizational collapse zones without reliable internet access' and 'people with Forth and general computing skills sufficient to expertly operate random hardware' is very narrow indeed. It's a cool project, but the complexity of most hardware is such that solo reverse engineering it for practical purposes is likely a fictional scenario. The chances of an engineering community that can be productive under civilization-ending pressures also seems pretty unlikely. If you have technology skills and reasonably expect to experience some sort of apocalyptic scenario, ISTM you'd be better off with a solar charger, a few rugged smartphones, and several SD cards containing backups of Wikipedia and as much reference material as you can collect. Getting to a better location (either by traveling or improving a deficient one) is likely to take up most of your mental and physical energy, and electronics are in the 'nice to have' part of your inventory, below weapons, tools, and basic survival supplies. If you want to go really cheap and low power, consider stocking up on ESP32 devices, which are super-capable and can be had for only a few $ each.

jacquesm 3y ago
> If you have technology skills and reasonably expect to experience some sort of apocalyptic scenario, ISTM you'd be better off with a solar charger, a few rugged smartphones, and several SD cards containing backups of Wikipedia and as much reference material as you can collect. That will buy you a decade. I'd go for a paper version of the stuff that you think is important enough to haul around in physical form for many decades and immediately start spreading these around in numbers large enough to ensure that some copies would survive. And even that assumes literacy, some level of schooling to survive, and enough specialization to be able to set aside time for people to study all of this. The best mechanism for something like that would probably be a priesthood of sorts... they tend to be long lived and good at preserving knowledge (and eventually to use it as a power base for domination of the unwashed masses which they work hard to keep dumb but that's already many steps down the line).
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  Good points. I think it's been linked on HN before, but one of the most robust libraries in the world has its texts engraved on wooden blocks: https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/737/ https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/737/ Deciding what to conserve and making it succinct enough to be manageable but detailed enough to useful actually seems like a great use case for AI. I'm a little more optimistic than you on the timeframe, as I have electronics that are decades old and work fine. Of course, if they suddenly stop it will be a source of disappointment rather than survival anxiety.