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Why would they be here? I'm just physically incapable of the superhuman levels of narcissism that are required to think that if intelligent aliens were aware o

Why would they be here? I'm just physically incapable of the superhuman levels of narcissism that are required to think that if intelligent aliens were aware of us that they'd spend the effort to bother to come here. Either that effort is itself measured at godlike superhuman levels, or it's effortless for them (or any point along that spectrum). As if becomes less effort for them, we become less interesting. As it becomes more effort. There isn't even any happy medium for this. If there is some middle ground that would have them visit other civilizations... then why ours? Someone's closer to them. Someone looks like they might be worth meeting. We're the ugly guy on Galactic Tindr, and by virtue of their ability to do interstellar travel, they're the hot 9.8s. They're not going to swipe right on us, they'll pick someone else. Maybe some flying saucer stopped by because it was along the way and they like doing quick surveys... but we've been more or less the same level of interesting for the last 4 billion years. That it just happened during the 20th century instead of 400 million years ago seems improbable. Superhumanly narcissistic.

revscat 3y ago
What strikes me as narcissistic is the presumption that you know what is narcissistic. It’s possible that the reasons for their presence is simply a mystery that we have not figured out yet.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  We're so full of awesome mysteries, they can't help themselves!
  - revscat 3y ago
    So you believe that humanity’s current knowledge is complete enough that an advanced civilization — say 100,000 years ahead of us — would behave in ways that are wholly understandable to us, is that correct? Or are you going to offer up more sarcasm and/or ridicule? That in an of itself is problematic, by the way. The refusal to treat this subject honestly and in good faith by so many is deeply unscientific.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
      [dead]
  - pmarreck 3y ago
    If you're smart enough to think you have something to say about this, you're also smart enough to know that "appeal to ridicule" is fallacious. What if we're the new kid on the interstellar space-travel block? What if we have more water than any of them have ever seen on one planet in their lives, and they want to start trading? What if one of their species is dying out and needs genetic input from us to make longer-lasting hybrids (this was one claim from all the butt-probing abduction reports)? What if our music (if it turns out that music is a universally appreciable phenomenon by any intelligent species with sound detection/"ears") is actually the most popular in the universe right now and they actually owe us a tremendous amount of galactic currency from "borrowing" our recordings, and just want to settle up? What if we are actually headed towards a worse climate catastrophe than we think, and they are desperate to warn us? What if they feel an intellectual kinship with us but are frustrated by our lack of accepting them, but can't land on the White House lawn without risking incurring an immediate armed counterattack because (as it may turn out), "being deeply initially afraid of aliens" (xenophobia) is a fundamental fact of the universe and the only way to acclimatize us is AVOIDING leaving hard physical evidence behind (which would be too shocking/abrupt a worldview shift) and instead doing systematic desensitization of this xenophobia by using an increasingly frequent pattern of "indirect evidence" (which by the way, looks a heck of a lot like what's actually going on)? (by the way, this is a real thing we're already aware of in human psychology- systematic desensitization is the only known way to cure phobias) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systematic_desensitization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systematic_desensitization The point is, you have no fucking idea what the reason(s) might be, dude. Or how interesting we'd be to others, or why.
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
      > What if we're the new kid on the interstellar space-travel block? An appealing story. Like, you could write a science fiction novel or show or something. But such narratives don't really mean much except for their appeal to evolved monkeys. So if we live in a galaxy full of rubber-forehead aliens, that works just fine. They're keeping secret so as to not violate the prime directive! There's no way to game this. Humans aren't interesting in any way, shape, or form. Dreaming up ways that I'm wrong doesn't make me wrong, it just means you're dreaming up new stories. If I'm wrong, then I get to maybe read something interesting in a few years. If you're wrong, then you're emotionally devastated because your super-narcissism just isn't being satisfied. > and they want to start trading? Trading what? Are our atoms better than their atoms? The universe doesn't work like that. There's nothing to trade. It costs thousands of dollars to lift a kilo to orbit... what do you think a kilo of Earth's finest Colombian coffee costs to send 15 light years away? And does it even taste the same after making the journey? All those weird volatiles and organic molecules do weird things after decades of storage, no matter how cold. After getting zapped with radiation on the trip. If they wanted to trade data, maybe... but why come? Long distance calls are cheaper than the Intergalactic Uber Data thing. And it's a big maybe. None of our data is interesting, though maybe they won't know that until they've seen it I guess. Again, long distance not delivery. > What if we are actually headed towards a worse climate catastrophe than we think, and they are desperate to warn us? I'd expect more of a 4chan "lulz" response. But either way, that's a little expensive. When's the last time you saw someone broken down at the side of the road and spent $90 trillion to help them? > What if they feel an intellectual kinship with us Evolutionary pressures caused their minds to develop in such a way that they feel intellectual kinships with gibbering alien horrors they've never met before, from the other side of the universe? > and the only way to acclimatize us is AVOIDING leaving I've seen better plots in porn videos. > The point is, you have no fucking idea I do have a fucking idea. Quite a few of them. All you have is a want though. You want this to be true.
Teever 3y ago
Aliens may send probes to every single star system and these automated sentinel probes may sit and watch for interesting/threatening things and relay that information back to the aliens.
pmarreck 3y ago
Suppose there were 500 known intelligent civilizations in the universe. I'm just throwing that number out there to prove a point. With just 500 intelligent known civilizations, the frequency across time of each one achieving interstellar space travel for the first time is likely incredibly rare. Like, I'd figure every few hundred to few thousand years, assuming they're spread out in space and time a bit. That would make us VERY interesting, indeed... because on galactic timescales, I think we're quite close to that

revscat 3y ago

What strikes me as narcissistic is the presumption that you know what is narcissistic. It’s possible that the reasons for their presence is simply a mystery that we have not figured out yet.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
We're so full of awesome mysteries, they can't help themselves!
- revscat 3y ago
  So you believe that humanity’s current knowledge is complete enough that an advanced civilization — say 100,000 years ahead of us — would behave in ways that are wholly understandable to us, is that correct? Or are you going to offer up more sarcasm and/or ridicule? That in an of itself is problematic, by the way. The refusal to treat this subject honestly and in good faith by so many is deeply unscientific.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
    [dead]
- pmarreck 3y ago
  If you're smart enough to think you have something to say about this, you're also smart enough to know that "appeal to ridicule" is fallacious. What if we're the new kid on the interstellar space-travel block? What if we have more water than any of them have ever seen on one planet in their lives, and they want to start trading? What if one of their species is dying out and needs genetic input from us to make longer-lasting hybrids (this was one claim from all the butt-probing abduction reports)? What if our music (if it turns out that music is a universally appreciable phenomenon by any intelligent species with sound detection/"ears") is actually the most popular in the universe right now and they actually owe us a tremendous amount of galactic currency from "borrowing" our recordings, and just want to settle up? What if we are actually headed towards a worse climate catastrophe than we think, and they are desperate to warn us? What if they feel an intellectual kinship with us but are frustrated by our lack of accepting them, but can't land on the White House lawn without risking incurring an immediate armed counterattack because (as it may turn out), "being deeply initially afraid of aliens" (xenophobia) is a fundamental fact of the universe and the only way to acclimatize us is AVOIDING leaving hard physical evidence behind (which would be too shocking/abrupt a worldview shift) and instead doing systematic desensitization of this xenophobia by using an increasingly frequent pattern of "indirect evidence" (which by the way, looks a heck of a lot like what's actually going on)? (by the way, this is a real thing we're already aware of in human psychology- systematic desensitization is the only known way to cure phobias) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systematic_desensitization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systematic_desensitization The point is, you have no fucking idea what the reason(s) might be, dude. Or how interesting we'd be to others, or why.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
    > What if we're the new kid on the interstellar space-travel block? An appealing story. Like, you could write a science fiction novel or show or something. But such narratives don't really mean much except for their appeal to evolved monkeys. So if we live in a galaxy full of rubber-forehead aliens, that works just fine. They're keeping secret so as to not violate the prime directive! There's no way to game this. Humans aren't interesting in any way, shape, or form. Dreaming up ways that I'm wrong doesn't make me wrong, it just means you're dreaming up new stories. If I'm wrong, then I get to maybe read something interesting in a few years. If you're wrong, then you're emotionally devastated because your super-narcissism just isn't being satisfied. > and they want to start trading? Trading what? Are our atoms better than their atoms? The universe doesn't work like that. There's nothing to trade. It costs thousands of dollars to lift a kilo to orbit... what do you think a kilo of Earth's finest Colombian coffee costs to send 15 light years away? And does it even taste the same after making the journey? All those weird volatiles and organic molecules do weird things after decades of storage, no matter how cold. After getting zapped with radiation on the trip. If they wanted to trade data, maybe... but why come? Long distance calls are cheaper than the Intergalactic Uber Data thing. And it's a big maybe. None of our data is interesting, though maybe they won't know that until they've seen it I guess. Again, long distance not delivery. > What if we are actually headed towards a worse climate catastrophe than we think, and they are desperate to warn us? I'd expect more of a 4chan "lulz" response. But either way, that's a little expensive. When's the last time you saw someone broken down at the side of the road and spent $90 trillion to help them? > What if they feel an intellectual kinship with us Evolutionary pressures caused their minds to develop in such a way that they feel intellectual kinships with gibbering alien horrors they've never met before, from the other side of the universe? > and the only way to acclimatize us is AVOIDING leaving I've seen better plots in porn videos. > The point is, you have no fucking idea I do have a fucking idea. Quite a few of them. All you have is a want though. You want this to be true.

Teever 3y ago

Aliens may send probes to every single star system and these automated sentinel probes may sit and watch for interesting/threatening things and relay that information back to the aliens.

pmarreck 3y ago

Suppose there were 500 known intelligent civilizations in the universe. I'm just throwing that number out there to prove a point. With just 500 intelligent known civilizations, the frequency across time of each one achieving interstellar space travel for the first time is likely incredibly rare. Like, I'd figure every few hundred to few thousand years, assuming they're spread out in space and time a bit. That would make us VERY interesting, indeed... because on galactic timescales, I think we're quite close to that