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Anecdotally it seems like these things are causing a crazy amount of head injuries. I get all the tales from the ICU at the dinner table and if I had kids I don

Anecdotally it seems like these things are causing a crazy amount of head injuries. I get all the tales from the ICU at the dinner table and if I had kids I don't know if I would even let them hang out with another kid if they had an ebike. They seem super cool and I always stop to watch someone zoom buy but I can't help but notice that a lot of the people on ebikes shouldn't be going that fast and aren't built to take a spill.

jeffbee 3y ago
I don’t think this can be ignored. The bulk of ebike injuries to children are coming from throttle-having class 2 bikes and in my view these should simply be outlawed. I’ve seen people crash then who clearly thought they were stopping, but who were holding the throttle. They were riding a motorcycle without motorcycle training. Torque-assist pedal systems are perfectly intuitive to anyone who knows how to ride a regular bike. The power isn’t the problem, it’s the human interface.
- readingistuff 3y ago
  You also need a higher quality, impact rated helmet. I'm sure plenty of folks buy am expensive bike and the cheapest helmet.
  - analog31 3y ago
    This could be a new market. Presently, there's no motorsport rated bike helmet. You can buy a motorcycle helmet, but it's a heavy, cumbersome beast. Or a bike helmet that comes with virtually no useful rating system except for the Virginia Tech rating program.
    - mtmail 3y ago
      https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html Freeride/Enduro/Downhill helmets exist (https://mountainbikeguys.com/downhill-helmet/ https://mountainbikeguys.com/downhill-helmet/) but nobody has come up with a rating yet afaik. I own one, and it probably saved my life at least once, but can understand how nobody wants to wear one outside a downhill bike park.
    - anotherboffin 3y ago
      NTA 8776 spec-rated helmets are built to withstand more forces than “regular” bike helmets. IIRC they are required in certain EU countries when riding an S-Pedelec (45 km/h limit pedal assist e-bike)
- acover 3y ago
  Another solution: use an age limit rather than ban. Motorcycles are dangerous but I'm still allowed to use them.
  - jeffbee 3y ago
    The person I saw crash the ebike was a full grown adult woman. She needed training, not more years of life.
    - acover 3y ago
      Training doesn't make bikes safe, especially when driving near cars.
      - thrown1212 3y ago
        It makes them safer, including when driving near cars. Lobby for no training if you want but don’t pretend like it doesn’t help.
        acover 3y ago
        Do you have evidence it helps? What course? Obviously more training can help. For example it would be useful to practice riding in the rain, ice, and wet leaves. But at what point does more training not help? When will you be safe? Riding a bike next to cars is inherently unsafe. When a car hits you, you are ducked. There's a limit to how vigilant you can be and most riders accept it's a when and not an if. Note motorcycles have mandatory training but still have 10x the death rate.
        nickthegreek 3y ago
        Motorcycles do not have mandatory training in Ohio. Just a written test and quick obstacle course. Temp permit is just a written test.
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  Unlike a motorcycle, if you engage the brake on an ebike, the motor is completely disabled in every model I’ve ever seen. You can hold the throttle wide open, and it won’t matter if any amount of brake is applied. E-bikes just aren’t that dangerous, especially compared to a full power motor vehicle. I suspect that the bulk of injuries to children on e-bikes are happening in throttle models because those are cheaper models. You don’t buy your kid a $5k mid drive ebike when you can get a $1k rear drive one. Mid drives are physically unable to have throttle, whereas rear drive bikes almost universally have them. If you are truly interested in saving children from injuries, the best thing we could do is put speed and power limits on cars. Speeding cars maim, kill, and injure several orders of magnitude more children than e-bikes.
  - jeffbee 3y ago
    Rad brand bikes with hydraulic brakes do not integrate the brake lever with the motor controller. Even on the ones you mention, that integrate the brake and motor controller, it’s still possible to come to a stop, release the brake lever, and then take off unintentionally into cross traffic because you were holding the throttle open the entire time. It’s a bad interface. Total agreement on the other part but the injuries I’m hearing about have been kids riding their class-2 e-bikes into fixed objects, not crashing with cars.
    - dghlsakjg 3y ago
      Huh. I wonder if this was an early model thing. My 2020 Rad has a throttle disconnect on both brakes and the rad parts and instructions for those parts include the brake sensor. The brake handle sensor on mine also operates a brake light. On the mechanical disc brake rad that I have they even go so far as to disable the brake lever adjustment by putting a warning sticker over it to ensure that you don’t adjust it out of range of the limit switch. https://support.radpowerbikes.com/hc/en-us/articles/4406179943707-Hydraulic-brake-replacement-guide https://support.radpowerbikes.com/hc/en-us/articles/44061799...
      - dicriseg 3y ago
- rsynnott 3y ago
  > The bulk of ebike injuries to children are coming from throttle-having class 2 bikes and in my view these should simply be outlawed Huh, I always thought that virtually everywhere treated these the same as motorbikes (ie you need a license, insurance etc).
  - jeffbee 3y ago
    I've never heard of any place that required a license for any of the 3 formal electric bike classifications. If you need a motorcycle license that is because the thing you intend to ride is, in fact, a motorcycle. The bike featured in the article, a BESV PSA1, is considered a "class 1" machine under the most common framework. It has a low-power motor, pedal assist, and no throttle. I am not aware of any place that requires licenses or insurance for such a bike.
    - rsynnott 3y ago
      Oh, yep, I was talking about bikes with throttles. The bike in the article should be fine basically everywhere.
- DANmode 3y ago
  You want to take away people's e-bikes because...there exists a class of people so poorly coordinated that they presumably can't operate any vehicle safely 100% of the time?
  - ComplexSystems 3y ago
    That's a huge strawman. Nobody's saying get rid of them, but if they're as dangerous as motorcycles then they should be regulated similarly.
    - DANmode 3y ago
      > throttle-having class 2 bikes and in my view these should simply be outlawed. One of us is misunderstanding the GGP.
daveoc64 3y ago
What are "these things"? Are you talking about something with a throttle? In the EU (and still the UK), anything with a throttle is treated like a motorcycle - it needs licence plates, tax, insurance and a driving licence. A child would therefore not be able to ride one. You also can't ride them on bike paths or lanes. A pedelec on the other hand, which is what "ebike" usually refers to, still requires pedalling and can only offer motor assistance up to 15.5 MPH - these can be used wherever bicycles can and by anyone, and have no legal requirements to use. I understand that the US doesn't really regulate non-standard vehicles, but it does seem to me like a child shouldn't be using something with a throttle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedelec#Legal_status_of_pedelecs_worldwide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedelec#Legal_status_of_pedele...

jeffbee 3y ago

I don’t think this can be ignored. The bulk of ebike injuries to children are coming from throttle-having class 2 bikes and in my view these should simply be outlawed. I’ve seen people crash then who clearly thought they were stopping, but who were holding the throttle. They were riding a motorcycle without motorcycle training. Torque-assist pedal systems are perfectly intuitive to anyone who knows how to ride a regular bike. The power isn’t the problem, it’s the human interface.

readingistuff 3y ago
You also need a higher quality, impact rated helmet. I'm sure plenty of folks buy am expensive bike and the cheapest helmet.
- analog31 3y ago
  This could be a new market. Presently, there's no motorsport rated bike helmet. You can buy a motorcycle helmet, but it's a heavy, cumbersome beast. Or a bike helmet that comes with virtually no useful rating system except for the Virginia Tech rating program.
  - mtmail 3y ago
    https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html Freeride/Enduro/Downhill helmets exist (https://mountainbikeguys.com/downhill-helmet/ https://mountainbikeguys.com/downhill-helmet/) but nobody has come up with a rating yet afaik. I own one, and it probably saved my life at least once, but can understand how nobody wants to wear one outside a downhill bike park.
  - anotherboffin 3y ago
    NTA 8776 spec-rated helmets are built to withstand more forces than “regular” bike helmets. IIRC they are required in certain EU countries when riding an S-Pedelec (45 km/h limit pedal assist e-bike)
acover 3y ago
Another solution: use an age limit rather than ban. Motorcycles are dangerous but I'm still allowed to use them.
- jeffbee 3y ago
  The person I saw crash the ebike was a full grown adult woman. She needed training, not more years of life.
  - acover 3y ago
    Training doesn't make bikes safe, especially when driving near cars.
    - thrown1212 3y ago
      It makes them safer, including when driving near cars. Lobby for no training if you want but don’t pretend like it doesn’t help.
      - acover 3y ago
        Do you have evidence it helps? What course? Obviously more training can help. For example it would be useful to practice riding in the rain, ice, and wet leaves. But at what point does more training not help? When will you be safe? Riding a bike next to cars is inherently unsafe. When a car hits you, you are ducked. There's a limit to how vigilant you can be and most riders accept it's a when and not an if. Note motorcycles have mandatory training but still have 10x the death rate.
        nickthegreek 3y ago
        Motorcycles do not have mandatory training in Ohio. Just a written test and quick obstacle course. Temp permit is just a written test.
dghlsakjg 3y ago
Unlike a motorcycle, if you engage the brake on an ebike, the motor is completely disabled in every model I’ve ever seen. You can hold the throttle wide open, and it won’t matter if any amount of brake is applied. E-bikes just aren’t that dangerous, especially compared to a full power motor vehicle. I suspect that the bulk of injuries to children on e-bikes are happening in throttle models because those are cheaper models. You don’t buy your kid a $5k mid drive ebike when you can get a $1k rear drive one. Mid drives are physically unable to have throttle, whereas rear drive bikes almost universally have them. If you are truly interested in saving children from injuries, the best thing we could do is put speed and power limits on cars. Speeding cars maim, kill, and injure several orders of magnitude more children than e-bikes.
- jeffbee 3y ago
  Rad brand bikes with hydraulic brakes do not integrate the brake lever with the motor controller. Even on the ones you mention, that integrate the brake and motor controller, it’s still possible to come to a stop, release the brake lever, and then take off unintentionally into cross traffic because you were holding the throttle open the entire time. It’s a bad interface. Total agreement on the other part but the injuries I’m hearing about have been kids riding their class-2 e-bikes into fixed objects, not crashing with cars.
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    Huh. I wonder if this was an early model thing. My 2020 Rad has a throttle disconnect on both brakes and the rad parts and instructions for those parts include the brake sensor. The brake handle sensor on mine also operates a brake light. On the mechanical disc brake rad that I have they even go so far as to disable the brake lever adjustment by putting a warning sticker over it to ensure that you don’t adjust it out of range of the limit switch. https://support.radpowerbikes.com/hc/en-us/articles/4406179943707-Hydraulic-brake-replacement-guide https://support.radpowerbikes.com/hc/en-us/articles/44061799...
    - dicriseg 3y ago
rsynnott 3y ago
> The bulk of ebike injuries to children are coming from throttle-having class 2 bikes and in my view these should simply be outlawed Huh, I always thought that virtually everywhere treated these the same as motorbikes (ie you need a license, insurance etc).
- jeffbee 3y ago
  I've never heard of any place that required a license for any of the 3 formal electric bike classifications. If you need a motorcycle license that is because the thing you intend to ride is, in fact, a motorcycle. The bike featured in the article, a BESV PSA1, is considered a "class 1" machine under the most common framework. It has a low-power motor, pedal assist, and no throttle. I am not aware of any place that requires licenses or insurance for such a bike.
  - rsynnott 3y ago
    Oh, yep, I was talking about bikes with throttles. The bike in the article should be fine basically everywhere.
DANmode 3y ago
You want to take away people's e-bikes because...there exists a class of people so poorly coordinated that they presumably can't operate any vehicle safely 100% of the time?
- ComplexSystems 3y ago
  That's a huge strawman. Nobody's saying get rid of them, but if they're as dangerous as motorcycles then they should be regulated similarly.
  - DANmode 3y ago
    > throttle-having class 2 bikes and in my view these should simply be outlawed. One of us is misunderstanding the GGP.

daveoc64 3y ago

What are "these things"? Are you talking about something with a throttle? In the EU (and still the UK), anything with a throttle is treated like a motorcycle - it needs licence plates, tax, insurance and a driving licence. A child would therefore not be able to ride one. You also can't ride them on bike paths or lanes. A pedelec on the other hand, which is what "ebike" usually refers to, still requires pedalling and can only offer motor assistance up to 15.5 MPH - these can be used wherever bicycles can and by anyone, and have no legal requirements to use. I understand that the US doesn't really regulate non-standard vehicles, but it does seem to me like a child shouldn't be using something with a throttle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedelec#Legal_status_of_pedelecs_worldwide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedelec#Legal_status_of_pedele...