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It amazes me how little attention e-bikes are given in terms of reducing traffic, pollution, CO2 etc. The BBC is especially bad at this - they promote lots of a

It amazes me how little attention e-bikes are given in terms of reducing traffic, pollution, CO2 etc. The BBC is especially bad at this - they promote lots of articles singing the praises of electric vehicles (i.e. cars) and almost never mention e-bikes as being far better for a lot of use cases. It also grinds my gears that there's tax breaks for getting e-cars and nothing for getting e-bikes. It's almost as if politicians are employed by car manufacturers.

blamazon 3y ago
Social researchers have dubbed this phenomenon "motonormativity"[1] and it is remarkably powerful. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/17/motonormativity-britons-more-accepting-driving-related-risk https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/17/motonormativit...
- ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  Also disparagingly known as car-brain.
  - blamazon 3y ago
    Perhaps to defuse the denigrative aspect of the term we should think of it as analogous to the 'lizard brain' as not a disease but something of an interior module we all have within us - on a day to day basis most people can generally introspect on the contributions of the lizard brain to our thoughts and feelings[1] , why not should we similarly introspect on the car brain and think on a similarly higher order level? [1] Tangential reading: 'Why Buddhism is True' by Robert Wight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Buddhism_Is_True https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Buddhism_Is_True https://www.npr.org/transcripts/541610511 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/541610511
kfarr 3y ago
Agreed, and it comes to life when you ask anyone guess the most popular electric vehicle. It’s not a tesla, it’s an ebike. The good news is that even without mainstream press e-bikes are significantly outselling electric cars
bluescrn 3y ago
Unless bike theft is solved, an e-bike will remain a toy for the weekends for most people. An expensive e-bike is a prime target to thieves. They require a secure indoor storage space at both ends of the any journey, and many potential users lack that, either at their workplace or their home (e.g living in an apartment only accessible via stairs)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- blamazon 3y ago
  Cars once upon a time required a secure storage space for security. Technology improved, comprehensive insurance became a social norm, etc, and now you can just snug it against a curb, hop out of your car and press a button and generally not worry about theft, but if it does happen you're covered. Why can't e-bikes be this way? My answer: they can and are, just not all of them yet.
  - c22 3y ago
    I put a two-way car alarm on my ebike and it works exactly like this.
  - bluescrn 3y ago
    Car theft is rather more policed because a 2-ton 100mph+ car can easily kill or cause a lot of damage in the wrong hands. Bike theft is down there with shoplifting or recreational drug use when it comes to policing priorities. But when a bike is stolen, often a person is losing an important means of transportation, so perhaps it should be taken more seriously. Not going to happen in a ‘soft on crime’ society, though.
    - blamazon 3y ago
      I propose, somewhat tautologically, that the primary reason why car theft is generally well policed (in USA, where my lived experiences have primarily been) is that it's generally a small enough problem for most police departments to get their arms around because of basic anti theft technology. I believe the Kia/Hyundai debacle of the last few years supports this idea: > So far this year, Minneapolis police have received 1,899 Kia and Hyundai theft reports, nearly 18 times the number for the same period in 2022. [1] [1]: https://apnews.com/article/hyundai-kia-tiktok-theft-stolen-8e0a353d24be0e7bce36e34c5e4dac51 https://apnews.com/article/hyundai-kia-tiktok-theft-stolen-8...
zdragnar 3y ago
I would love to get some e-bikes for my family. However, they're not terribly useful aside from recreation for us. We don't live in an urban or even suburban area. Bikes are a local thing. If the weather is too hot, or cold, or wet, or snowy, you're out of luck. Cars appeal nationwide. They'll get you hundreds of miles, comfortably, between remote destinations that aren't served by public transport or airports. Or, they'll help you get groceries for the whole family. If you think your area would be better off if tax breaks went to e-bikes, write your city and state governments. Depending on where you live, they're already taking upwards of 10% or more of your income, plus taxing the goods you buy and the land you live on.
- ryukafalz 3y ago
  They're of course not the solution for every transportation need, especially if you live out in the middle of nowhere, but two things: > If the weather is too hot, or cold, or wet, or snowy, you're out of luck. I really don't think the weather is as much of a barrier as it's often made out to be. The Netherlands is famously windy and rainy and Oulu, Finland has snow 5 months out of the year, but nevertheless lots of people cycle in both places. But yes, if your bike lanes and paths are unmaintained (or worse, have all the street's snow plowed into them) it won't be attractive to cycle in the winter. That's a question of infrastructure and priorities though, it's not the weather alone. > Or, they'll help you get groceries for the whole family. I ride an Urban Arrow Family, and it works fine for bringing home lots of groceries.
  - readingistuff 3y ago
    I live in Seattle, and it's really pretty easy to get a shell for rain and cold. Or shorts for heat.
    - zdragnar 3y ago
      Seattle has a very temperate climate (relatively speaking) so the last paragraph of my post applies quite well there.
  - 3y ago
Renaud 3y ago
In France, many cities and regions offer non-negligible subsidies to locals wanting to purchase an e-bikes (I think it also works for regular bikes). These schemes have boosted the adoption of e-bikes and most cities, big and small, have been playing catch-up to provide bike lanes in and around city centres. Currently travelling across France along canals and rivers and the network is pretty extensive all over the country. It’s basically the same story all over Europe (and the UK), with varying degrees of coverage.
- ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  Here in the UK, I gaze longingly over the Channel at France and their promotion of cycling, especially in Paris.
  - dazc 3y ago
    Cheeky
    - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
      I'd like to be able to legally RLJ as in Paris: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33773868 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33773868
karaterobot 3y ago
I love my e-bike (and feel like I have to point that out in threads like this), but while the use cases for them are many, they do not realistically replace ICE cars for most people. They just don't. People with families need cars, and would never forego owning one (or two, or even three) of them just because they have the option of riding electric bikes. That's why electric and hybrid electric cars remain a big deal.
- turdprincess 3y ago
  Replacing the car completely is unrealistic. Replacing a second car - totally possible. The folks who are buying electric cars are often buying it as a second car anyways since they still need the ICE car for bigger trips. Those folks could probably get by with one ICE car and a couple of e-bikes, which would be cheaper, healthier and more fun.
  - MrJohz 3y ago
    The other side of this is the potential for car-sharing, reducing the total number of cars around, but allowing people to still make more infrequent journeys by car when that's necessary (or just easier). If your bike is enough for all your regular weekly journeys, you can rent a car for holidays, or visiting friends and family further away.
- MrJohz 3y ago
  Living in a city in Germany, a lot of families cycle with their children. Typically babies and young children have a seat on the handlebars or in a small trailer on the back, older children either have a tandem-style attachment or their own bike. The various attachments are typically fairly generic, so should work for both regular and electric bikes. You can also buy (or rent) tricycle-style bikes that have a large space at the front to carry heavier loads - children, pets, or just shopping. I assume there are electric versions of these as well. In fairness, most of this assumes that the city is reasonably bike accessible, mainly in terms of having all the necessary amenities within a cycle ride from home. If you live in suburbs, this may not be as possible. But I think that says more about the inadequacy of poorly planned cities than that of electric bikes.
alsuren 3y ago
> tax breaks for getting e-cars and nothing for getting e-bikes Cycle to work schemes let you buy a bike before income tax. I'm not sure how that compares to e-car tax breaks though. All your employer if they have such a scheme.
- ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  The Cycle-to-Work scheme as I remember it is problematic in that you're not buying the bike, but virtually leasing it from your employer for a period of time (1 year?) and you hope that your employer will give the bike to you at the end of that period. The problems are that your employer might not want the extra hassle involved of potentially owning unwanted bikes (my employer has no interest in the scheme) and also the last time that I checked, the tax break was on only the first £1000. (I'm not looking to buy an e-bike as I'm more of an acoustic cyclist)
  - dazc 3y ago
    It's a tax break which is 100% not enforced. You don't even have to actually cycle to work.
    - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
      I think it would make more sense to reduce or remove VAT from bikes and cycling accessories instead. Far less paperwork and it would immediately open the benefits to everyone rather than being targetted towards the MAMIL (MAWIL?) segment though I consider myself a MAMIL.
  - chriswarbo 3y ago
    > The Cycle-to-Work scheme as I remember it is problematic in that you're not buying the bike, but virtually leasing it from your employer for a period of time (1 year?) That's just a technicality, I assume to make it comply with other laws about using company money to buy personal items. Payments are deducted from your pre-tax earnings each month, so the saving come from paying less income tax; you can't give the company a wad of cash up-front, or have it all come out of one month's salary. > you hope that your employer will give the bike to you at the end of that period They will always give you the bike: Cycle to Work schemes are offered as an employee benefit, the company doesn't want the bike. More important is what happens if you leave the company before that period; e.g. when a previous employer folded I had some some balance remaining to pay (around £500), which was deducted from my redundancy payment. > The problems are that your employer might not want the extra hassle involved of potentially owning unwanted bikes (my employer has no interest in the scheme) That's certainly true, and probably the main reason to avoid it (as an employer). Still, it's not much different to having surplus office furniture; at the higher-end, I imagine it's similar to an employee requiring some specialist desk chair, which the company can sell off afterwards. > he last time that I checked, the tax break was on only the first £1000. It varies per employer, e.g. I got one up to £1500. More annoying is that it must cover the full price: e.g. you can't pay £100 cash to get a £1600 ebike (although some sellers may fiddle the price tag to get around this!)
criddell 3y ago
> nothing for getting e-bikes Where I live in Texas there’s a $800 rebate for e-bikes.

blamazon 3y ago

Social researchers have dubbed this phenomenon "motonormativity"[1] and it is remarkably powerful. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/17/motonormativity-britons-more-accepting-driving-related-risk https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/17/motonormativit...

ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
Also disparagingly known as car-brain.
- blamazon 3y ago
  Perhaps to defuse the denigrative aspect of the term we should think of it as analogous to the 'lizard brain' as not a disease but something of an interior module we all have within us - on a day to day basis most people can generally introspect on the contributions of the lizard brain to our thoughts and feelings[1] , why not should we similarly introspect on the car brain and think on a similarly higher order level? [1] Tangential reading: 'Why Buddhism is True' by Robert Wight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Buddhism_Is_True https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Buddhism_Is_True https://www.npr.org/transcripts/541610511 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/541610511

kfarr 3y ago

Agreed, and it comes to life when you ask anyone guess the most popular electric vehicle. It’s not a tesla, it’s an ebike. The good news is that even without mainstream press e-bikes are significantly outselling electric cars

bluescrn 3y ago

Unless bike theft is solved, an e-bike will remain a toy for the weekends for most people. An expensive e-bike is a prime target to thieves. They require a secure indoor storage space at both ends of the any journey, and many potential users lack that, either at their workplace or their home (e.g living in an apartment only accessible via stairs)

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
blamazon 3y ago
Cars once upon a time required a secure storage space for security. Technology improved, comprehensive insurance became a social norm, etc, and now you can just snug it against a curb, hop out of your car and press a button and generally not worry about theft, but if it does happen you're covered. Why can't e-bikes be this way? My answer: they can and are, just not all of them yet.
- c22 3y ago
  I put a two-way car alarm on my ebike and it works exactly like this.
- bluescrn 3y ago
  Car theft is rather more policed because a 2-ton 100mph+ car can easily kill or cause a lot of damage in the wrong hands. Bike theft is down there with shoplifting or recreational drug use when it comes to policing priorities. But when a bike is stolen, often a person is losing an important means of transportation, so perhaps it should be taken more seriously. Not going to happen in a ‘soft on crime’ society, though.
  - blamazon 3y ago
    I propose, somewhat tautologically, that the primary reason why car theft is generally well policed (in USA, where my lived experiences have primarily been) is that it's generally a small enough problem for most police departments to get their arms around because of basic anti theft technology. I believe the Kia/Hyundai debacle of the last few years supports this idea: > So far this year, Minneapolis police have received 1,899 Kia and Hyundai theft reports, nearly 18 times the number for the same period in 2022. [1] [1]: https://apnews.com/article/hyundai-kia-tiktok-theft-stolen-8e0a353d24be0e7bce36e34c5e4dac51 https://apnews.com/article/hyundai-kia-tiktok-theft-stolen-8...

zdragnar 3y ago

I would love to get some e-bikes for my family. However, they're not terribly useful aside from recreation for us. We don't live in an urban or even suburban area. Bikes are a local thing. If the weather is too hot, or cold, or wet, or snowy, you're out of luck. Cars appeal nationwide. They'll get you hundreds of miles, comfortably, between remote destinations that aren't served by public transport or airports. Or, they'll help you get groceries for the whole family. If you think your area would be better off if tax breaks went to e-bikes, write your city and state governments. Depending on where you live, they're already taking upwards of 10% or more of your income, plus taxing the goods you buy and the land you live on.

ryukafalz 3y ago
They're of course not the solution for every transportation need, especially if you live out in the middle of nowhere, but two things: > If the weather is too hot, or cold, or wet, or snowy, you're out of luck. I really don't think the weather is as much of a barrier as it's often made out to be. The Netherlands is famously windy and rainy and Oulu, Finland has snow 5 months out of the year, but nevertheless lots of people cycle in both places. But yes, if your bike lanes and paths are unmaintained (or worse, have all the street's snow plowed into them) it won't be attractive to cycle in the winter. That's a question of infrastructure and priorities though, it's not the weather alone. > Or, they'll help you get groceries for the whole family. I ride an Urban Arrow Family, and it works fine for bringing home lots of groceries.
- readingistuff 3y ago
  I live in Seattle, and it's really pretty easy to get a shell for rain and cold. Or shorts for heat.
  - zdragnar 3y ago
    Seattle has a very temperate climate (relatively speaking) so the last paragraph of my post applies quite well there.
- 3y ago

Renaud 3y ago

In France, many cities and regions offer non-negligible subsidies to locals wanting to purchase an e-bikes (I think it also works for regular bikes). These schemes have boosted the adoption of e-bikes and most cities, big and small, have been playing catch-up to provide bike lanes in and around city centres. Currently travelling across France along canals and rivers and the network is pretty extensive all over the country. It’s basically the same story all over Europe (and the UK), with varying degrees of coverage.

ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
Here in the UK, I gaze longingly over the Channel at France and their promotion of cycling, especially in Paris.
- dazc 3y ago
  Cheeky
  - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
    I'd like to be able to legally RLJ as in Paris: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33773868 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33773868

karaterobot 3y ago

I love my e-bike (and feel like I have to point that out in threads like this), but while the use cases for them are many, they do not realistically replace ICE cars for most people. They just don't. People with families need cars, and would never forego owning one (or two, or even three) of them just because they have the option of riding electric bikes. That's why electric and hybrid electric cars remain a big deal.

turdprincess 3y ago
Replacing the car completely is unrealistic. Replacing a second car - totally possible. The folks who are buying electric cars are often buying it as a second car anyways since they still need the ICE car for bigger trips. Those folks could probably get by with one ICE car and a couple of e-bikes, which would be cheaper, healthier and more fun.
- MrJohz 3y ago
  The other side of this is the potential for car-sharing, reducing the total number of cars around, but allowing people to still make more infrequent journeys by car when that's necessary (or just easier). If your bike is enough for all your regular weekly journeys, you can rent a car for holidays, or visiting friends and family further away.
MrJohz 3y ago
Living in a city in Germany, a lot of families cycle with their children. Typically babies and young children have a seat on the handlebars or in a small trailer on the back, older children either have a tandem-style attachment or their own bike. The various attachments are typically fairly generic, so should work for both regular and electric bikes. You can also buy (or rent) tricycle-style bikes that have a large space at the front to carry heavier loads - children, pets, or just shopping. I assume there are electric versions of these as well. In fairness, most of this assumes that the city is reasonably bike accessible, mainly in terms of having all the necessary amenities within a cycle ride from home. If you live in suburbs, this may not be as possible. But I think that says more about the inadequacy of poorly planned cities than that of electric bikes.

alsuren 3y ago

> tax breaks for getting e-cars and nothing for getting e-bikes Cycle to work schemes let you buy a bike before income tax. I'm not sure how that compares to e-car tax breaks though. All your employer if they have such a scheme.

ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
The Cycle-to-Work scheme as I remember it is problematic in that you're not buying the bike, but virtually leasing it from your employer for a period of time (1 year?) and you hope that your employer will give the bike to you at the end of that period. The problems are that your employer might not want the extra hassle involved of potentially owning unwanted bikes (my employer has no interest in the scheme) and also the last time that I checked, the tax break was on only the first £1000. (I'm not looking to buy an e-bike as I'm more of an acoustic cyclist)
- dazc 3y ago
  It's a tax break which is 100% not enforced. You don't even have to actually cycle to work.
  - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
    I think it would make more sense to reduce or remove VAT from bikes and cycling accessories instead. Far less paperwork and it would immediately open the benefits to everyone rather than being targetted towards the MAMIL (MAWIL?) segment though I consider myself a MAMIL.
- chriswarbo 3y ago
  > The Cycle-to-Work scheme as I remember it is problematic in that you're not buying the bike, but virtually leasing it from your employer for a period of time (1 year?) That's just a technicality, I assume to make it comply with other laws about using company money to buy personal items. Payments are deducted from your pre-tax earnings each month, so the saving come from paying less income tax; you can't give the company a wad of cash up-front, or have it all come out of one month's salary. > you hope that your employer will give the bike to you at the end of that period They will always give you the bike: Cycle to Work schemes are offered as an employee benefit, the company doesn't want the bike. More important is what happens if you leave the company before that period; e.g. when a previous employer folded I had some some balance remaining to pay (around £500), which was deducted from my redundancy payment. > The problems are that your employer might not want the extra hassle involved of potentially owning unwanted bikes (my employer has no interest in the scheme) That's certainly true, and probably the main reason to avoid it (as an employer). Still, it's not much different to having surplus office furniture; at the higher-end, I imagine it's similar to an employee requiring some specialist desk chair, which the company can sell off afterwards. > he last time that I checked, the tax break was on only the first £1000. It varies per employer, e.g. I got one up to £1500. More annoying is that it must cover the full price: e.g. you can't pay £100 cash to get a £1600 ebike (although some sellers may fiddle the price tag to get around this!)

criddell 3y ago

> nothing for getting e-bikes Where I live in Texas there’s a $800 rebate for e-bikes.