3 ms·

FWIW, both piloting and surgery have easy on ramps in guided settings, often with simulations. So even as a strawman analogies, they’re bad ones. Nevermind tha

by dagmx 3y ago

FWIW, both piloting and surgery have easy on ramps in guided settings, often with simulations. So even as a strawman analogies, they’re bad ones. Nevermind that you ignored the part where I delineated between learning and using it in important projects. I’m not even going to address the rest of your comment which is frankly a depressing outlook on life.

Brian_K_White 3y ago
So, the 'easy on ramp guided path' to being allowed to pilot a plane or practice medecine, is as easy or even in the same universe with writing a makefile? Do you hear yourself? Talk about invalid arguments holy shit! The easy on ramp was it was totally free and permissionless to learn how to write a Makefile, or read a bunch of existing ones, or countless howtos, and that a basic makefile is basic and you don't need to figure out the arcane bits until you want to, and at no point ever do you need a license no matter how easy or guided the path. You can be a poor 10 year old in a 3rd world country and write a Makefile. No gates kept. It's a depressing outlook on life to see something as simple a useful as make as some kind of problem where the supposedly superior answer is something ridiculous like python. The fact that anyone even for one second thinks these are reasonable thoughts is what is truly depressing.
- dagmx 3y ago
  Is anger and derision your default state of discourse? Both your responses so far have been just completely over the top in both regards. But putting that aside, you don’t think Make has a ton of footguns for someone starting out? Spaces vs tabs for different bits because of decades of legacy? Oh but most editors default to tabs as spaces and suddenly no matter what you do, following tutorials will still fail. Or you try and mess around with an existing open source project to learn from it. You want to list the targets? Oh wait, there’s no standard way to examine the makefile without understanding Make first. If people consider Make easy to learn, imho they haven’t really reflected on how much more streamlined the rest of the software engineering ecosystem is, and how it benefits everyone from new programmers to experienced devs. I’m not the one saying it should be Python, I’m just saying Make is not a good solution in this day and age, when so many other ecosystems have shown they can have better on-boarding experiences. Anyway I won’t respond further. Feel free to rage reply as you want.
  - Towaway69 3y ago
    Would anyone allow people without a drivers license onto the streets in a car? Is that gatekeeping or learning the rules of how a societal form of cooperation is practiced? Now whether learning how make works is the same as driving a car is left to the reader to decide. Either way make is also a societal form of cooperation with its rules and traditions. Where does gatekeeping start and where does societal norms and cooperation begin?
    - ModernMech 3y ago
      Honestly, I’m closer to ditching C as the language for my systems course and moving to Rust entirely. It’s much easier than trying to rationalize the state of affairs through this gatekeeping in the name of safety lens. I thought we all decided that norms and just imploring coders to hold the tools the right way isn’t scalable. I thought the industry had moved to safety through tooling, not safety through peer pressure and hoop jumping. I mean, if we’re talking about cortical systems and safety, why is anyone using C at all?
      - dagmx 3y ago
        This exactly. the level of work needed to add a dependency in C+Make vs Rust+Cargo is huge.
        Towaway69 3y ago
        Don't forget, banks still use cobol... Should be replaced... If only someone could! Herein lies the issue for me: should existing projects switch because they are deemed to be gatekeeping when in fact either they are fine with their technology choices or they have not the resources or knowledge to change but they aren't gatekeeping. The external appearance is the same whichever reason might be the truth.
        dagmx 3y ago
        I don’t think anyone’s advocating for changing old projects just for the sake of accessibility, but if someone was able to contribute a change that increases accessibility while preserving functionality, then that’s fine. It’s how a lot of major OSS projects have shifted to cmake from make or scons. Granted cmake isn’t a pinnacle of ease of use either but it’s much easier imho to reason about and integrate with various tooling like IDEs Ideals don’t have to be binary.

by dagmx 3y ago

Brian_K_White 3y ago

So, the 'easy on ramp guided path' to being allowed to pilot a plane or practice medecine, is as easy or even in the same universe with writing a makefile? Do you hear yourself? Talk about invalid arguments holy shit! The easy on ramp was it was totally free and permissionless to learn how to write a Makefile, or read a bunch of existing ones, or countless howtos, and that a basic makefile is basic and you don't need to figure out the arcane bits until you want to, and at no point ever do you need a license no matter how easy or guided the path. You can be a poor 10 year old in a 3rd world country and write a Makefile. No gates kept. It's a depressing outlook on life to see something as simple a useful as make as some kind of problem where the supposedly superior answer is something ridiculous like python. The fact that anyone even for one second thinks these are reasonable thoughts is what is truly depressing.

dagmx 3y ago
Is anger and derision your default state of discourse? Both your responses so far have been just completely over the top in both regards. But putting that aside, you don’t think Make has a ton of footguns for someone starting out? Spaces vs tabs for different bits because of decades of legacy? Oh but most editors default to tabs as spaces and suddenly no matter what you do, following tutorials will still fail. Or you try and mess around with an existing open source project to learn from it. You want to list the targets? Oh wait, there’s no standard way to examine the makefile without understanding Make first. If people consider Make easy to learn, imho they haven’t really reflected on how much more streamlined the rest of the software engineering ecosystem is, and how it benefits everyone from new programmers to experienced devs. I’m not the one saying it should be Python, I’m just saying Make is not a good solution in this day and age, when so many other ecosystems have shown they can have better on-boarding experiences. Anyway I won’t respond further. Feel free to rage reply as you want.
- Towaway69 3y ago
  Would anyone allow people without a drivers license onto the streets in a car? Is that gatekeeping or learning the rules of how a societal form of cooperation is practiced? Now whether learning how make works is the same as driving a car is left to the reader to decide. Either way make is also a societal form of cooperation with its rules and traditions. Where does gatekeeping start and where does societal norms and cooperation begin?
  - ModernMech 3y ago
    Honestly, I’m closer to ditching C as the language for my systems course and moving to Rust entirely. It’s much easier than trying to rationalize the state of affairs through this gatekeeping in the name of safety lens. I thought we all decided that norms and just imploring coders to hold the tools the right way isn’t scalable. I thought the industry had moved to safety through tooling, not safety through peer pressure and hoop jumping. I mean, if we’re talking about cortical systems and safety, why is anyone using C at all?
    - dagmx 3y ago
      This exactly. the level of work needed to add a dependency in C+Make vs Rust+Cargo is huge.
      - Towaway69 3y ago
        Don't forget, banks still use cobol... Should be replaced... If only someone could! Herein lies the issue for me: should existing projects switch because they are deemed to be gatekeeping when in fact either they are fine with their technology choices or they have not the resources or knowledge to change but they aren't gatekeeping. The external appearance is the same whichever reason might be the truth.
        dagmx 3y ago
        I don’t think anyone’s advocating for changing old projects just for the sake of accessibility, but if someone was able to contribute a change that increases accessibility while preserving functionality, then that’s fine. It’s how a lot of major OSS projects have shifted to cmake from make or scons. Granted cmake isn’t a pinnacle of ease of use either but it’s much easier imho to reason about and integrate with various tooling like IDEs Ideals don’t have to be binary.