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"Our findings suggest that free-ranging cats cause substantially greater wildlife mortality than previously thought and are likely the single greatest source of

"Our findings suggest that free-ranging cats cause substantially greater wildlife mortality than previously thought and are likely the single greatest source of anthropogenic mortality for US birds and mammals."[0] [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380 Studies show that outdoor cats kill billions of birds annually. Anecdotally, posting anti cat studies on social media leads to real world threats and cat loving relatives unfriending me.

slily 3y ago
It also suggests that up to >20 billion mammals are killed by those cats each year. Quick Google search says that there are fewer than 60 million domestic pet cats in the US, and about the same number of feral cats. So on average domestic cats kill up to >150 mammals a day? And since not all of them are allowed outdoors, those supposed killer outdoor cats would practically kill an animal every few seconds. Looking at the lower estimates the numbers still look crazy. Even if we round up all the estimates for our number of cats to 200 million total and use the lowest values for the estimates, it implies that the average kill count for a domestic cat (including indoor cats) is 6.5 birds and 31.5 mammals(!) a day! And the estimate range is pretty large, so the average is much higher! Umm... Sorry but I don't believe this at all. I've seen this paper posted several times around the Internet and it contradicts my experience completely. Finally, the paper does mention that the majority of those estimated deaths are attributed to unowned (i.e. feral) cats. I thought I should point that out since you're obviously implying that cat owners letting their pets roam outside are causing this.
- tonyhb 3y ago
  You said it yourself - domestic vs unowned. People aren’t counting unowned cats en masse, and domestication is the root cause of those feral cats. Also, their range is lower bound 3* your numbers, so there’s no need to cherry pick the highest end of all ranges here. Whether they’re right or not, it’s plausible and probable that cats are a problem. Biggest problem? Who knows
  - vasco 3y ago
    > Whether they’re right or not, it’s plausible and probable that cats are a problem. It's not plausible to me that cats kill 10-30 other animals per day if they go outside.
    - tonyhb 3y ago
      With 60m cats and a mid range 15b animals killed, that’s 250 deaths per cat a year, less than one a day. According to the study. Idk where you’re getting your numbers from dude but it’s not TFA. You’re blowing things out of proportion by several orders of magnitude. Is it plausible that they’re a problem by killing some number of animals?
- Timon3 3y ago
  > It also suggests that up to >20 billion mammals are killed by those cats each year. Quick Google search says that there are fewer than 60 million domestic pet cats in the US, and about the same number of feral cats. So on average domestic cats kill up to >150 mammals a day? Sorry, but I'm a bit confused by your maths. 20 billion mammals / 60 million cats = 333.33 animals per cat per year, or around 0.91 animals per day. That seems entirely reasonable. How do you get >150/day?
  - slily 3y ago
    You're right, I got the scale wrong, my bad. I'll blame the late hour ;) It's still too high for pet cats (>1 mammal killed a week supposedly based on the average estimate and the same overestimation of 200 million cats, indoor included) but might make more sense if you consider that ferals have a disproportionate impact. I know people want an easy solution that absolves them from blame but it certainly doesn't seem to justify regurgitating this paper ad nauseam and demonizing people letting their pets outside. Overall I doubt that cats move the needle outside of urban areas with high feral cat populations that area already poor habitats for birds.
    - Timon3 3y ago
      > It's still obviously too high for pet cats (>1 mammal killed a week supposedly based on the average estimate and the same overestimation of 200 million cats, indoor included) but might make more sense if you consider that ferals have a disproportionate impact. I don't know why it's obvious to you that >1 mammal/week is too high for pet cats. I've seen cats bring rodent "gifts" every 2-3 days, and I'm reasonably sure that those were not all their kills.
jay_kyburz 3y ago
In the ACT here in Australia, all cats born after 1 July 2022 must be registered and kept indoors (or in a cage when outside). There are also 17 suburbs where cats of any age must be contained at all times. If you elect green governments, progress can be made. Here is a press release https://www.cmtedd.act.gov.au/open_government/inform/act_government_media_releases/chris-steel-mla-media-releases/2022/new-cat-laws-to-protect-pets-and-native-wildlife https://www.cmtedd.act.gov.au/open_government/inform/act_gov...
- defrost 3y ago
  Also, in Australia: Felixer, the grooming trap, works to control feral cats A feral cat management device that uses lasers and sensors to specifically target cats has been shown to be effective The automated device sprays a measured dose of poison onto the fur of cats when they pass within 4m, which the cats then ingest when they lick themselves during grooming. The trial showed the device was highly specific at targeting cats. https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/felixer,-the-grooming-trap,-works-to-control-feral-cats https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/felixer,-the-grooming-trap,-... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-29/feral-cat-management-device-felixer-tested-at-animal-reserve/12296874 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-29/feral-cat-management-... https://thylation.com/felixer-faqs/ https://thylation.com/felixer-faqs/ A camera based Artificial Intelligence (AI) system working in tandem with the four Lidars now offers an enhanced target detection capability that is being implemented in our new batch of V3.2
Mistletoe 3y ago
And the sad thing is if they are like our cats they don’t even eat it. Just random genes for killing in their genome that they don’t even use or need anymore. The cats won’t even eat much other food that isn’t their dry kibble and certainly not an animal they just killed.
tacocataco 3y ago
I grew up on a farm and we had barn cats we kept to keep mice put of the hay and animal feed. All spayed and neutered of course. However, now and then unfixed strays would show up, like the setup, and stay. It's crazy how fast cats can multiply. By the time we figured out there was stray in the barn, they would either be knocked up when they get there or get knocked up by the hordes of traveling Tom cats. We would give away what cats we could and got the rest fixed. Some of the Tom cats would be violent as well. Not just cat fighting, straight up killing our cats. They definitely got put down when we saw them. This is in the country, I could imagine the problem is much worse closer to big population centers with more food and fresh escapees. By the way, you can get cats fixed for free at certain places. Just keep in mind they dock one of the ears so they can keep tabs on the cats. Can't share a link right now I'm on break. I love cats by the way. Still trying to save up for a place of my own so I can own two. Unfortunately the housing market has been crazy and I probably missed my chance.

slily 3y ago

It also suggests that up to >20 billion mammals are killed by those cats each year. Quick Google search says that there are fewer than 60 million domestic pet cats in the US, and about the same number of feral cats. So on average domestic cats kill up to >150 mammals a day? And since not all of them are allowed outdoors, those supposed killer outdoor cats would practically kill an animal every few seconds. Looking at the lower estimates the numbers still look crazy. Even if we round up all the estimates for our number of cats to 200 million total and use the lowest values for the estimates, it implies that the average kill count for a domestic cat (including indoor cats) is 6.5 birds and 31.5 mammals(!) a day! And the estimate range is pretty large, so the average is much higher! Umm... Sorry but I don't believe this at all. I've seen this paper posted several times around the Internet and it contradicts my experience completely. Finally, the paper does mention that the majority of those estimated deaths are attributed to unowned (i.e. feral) cats. I thought I should point that out since you're obviously implying that cat owners letting their pets roam outside are causing this.

tonyhb 3y ago
You said it yourself - domestic vs unowned. People aren’t counting unowned cats en masse, and domestication is the root cause of those feral cats. Also, their range is lower bound 3* your numbers, so there’s no need to cherry pick the highest end of all ranges here. Whether they’re right or not, it’s plausible and probable that cats are a problem. Biggest problem? Who knows
- vasco 3y ago
  > Whether they’re right or not, it’s plausible and probable that cats are a problem. It's not plausible to me that cats kill 10-30 other animals per day if they go outside.
  - tonyhb 3y ago
    With 60m cats and a mid range 15b animals killed, that’s 250 deaths per cat a year, less than one a day. According to the study. Idk where you’re getting your numbers from dude but it’s not TFA. You’re blowing things out of proportion by several orders of magnitude. Is it plausible that they’re a problem by killing some number of animals?
Timon3 3y ago
> It also suggests that up to >20 billion mammals are killed by those cats each year. Quick Google search says that there are fewer than 60 million domestic pet cats in the US, and about the same number of feral cats. So on average domestic cats kill up to >150 mammals a day? Sorry, but I'm a bit confused by your maths. 20 billion mammals / 60 million cats = 333.33 animals per cat per year, or around 0.91 animals per day. That seems entirely reasonable. How do you get >150/day?
- slily 3y ago
  You're right, I got the scale wrong, my bad. I'll blame the late hour ;) It's still too high for pet cats (>1 mammal killed a week supposedly based on the average estimate and the same overestimation of 200 million cats, indoor included) but might make more sense if you consider that ferals have a disproportionate impact. I know people want an easy solution that absolves them from blame but it certainly doesn't seem to justify regurgitating this paper ad nauseam and demonizing people letting their pets outside. Overall I doubt that cats move the needle outside of urban areas with high feral cat populations that area already poor habitats for birds.
  - Timon3 3y ago
    > It's still obviously too high for pet cats (>1 mammal killed a week supposedly based on the average estimate and the same overestimation of 200 million cats, indoor included) but might make more sense if you consider that ferals have a disproportionate impact. I don't know why it's obvious to you that >1 mammal/week is too high for pet cats. I've seen cats bring rodent "gifts" every 2-3 days, and I'm reasonably sure that those were not all their kills.

jay_kyburz 3y ago

In the ACT here in Australia, all cats born after 1 July 2022 must be registered and kept indoors (or in a cage when outside). There are also 17 suburbs where cats of any age must be contained at all times. If you elect green governments, progress can be made. Here is a press release https://www.cmtedd.act.gov.au/open_government/inform/act_government_media_releases/chris-steel-mla-media-releases/2022/new-cat-laws-to-protect-pets-and-native-wildlife https://www.cmtedd.act.gov.au/open_government/inform/act_gov...

defrost 3y ago
Also, in Australia: Felixer, the grooming trap, works to control feral cats A feral cat management device that uses lasers and sensors to specifically target cats has been shown to be effective The automated device sprays a measured dose of poison onto the fur of cats when they pass within 4m, which the cats then ingest when they lick themselves during grooming. The trial showed the device was highly specific at targeting cats. https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/felixer,-the-grooming-trap,-works-to-control-feral-cats https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/felixer,-the-grooming-trap,-... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-29/feral-cat-management-device-felixer-tested-at-animal-reserve/12296874 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-29/feral-cat-management-... https://thylation.com/felixer-faqs/ https://thylation.com/felixer-faqs/ A camera based Artificial Intelligence (AI) system working in tandem with the four Lidars now offers an enhanced target detection capability that is being implemented in our new batch of V3.2

Mistletoe 3y ago

And the sad thing is if they are like our cats they don’t even eat it. Just random genes for killing in their genome that they don’t even use or need anymore. The cats won’t even eat much other food that isn’t their dry kibble and certainly not an animal they just killed.

tacocataco 3y ago

I grew up on a farm and we had barn cats we kept to keep mice put of the hay and animal feed. All spayed and neutered of course. However, now and then unfixed strays would show up, like the setup, and stay. It's crazy how fast cats can multiply. By the time we figured out there was stray in the barn, they would either be knocked up when they get there or get knocked up by the hordes of traveling Tom cats. We would give away what cats we could and got the rest fixed. Some of the Tom cats would be violent as well. Not just cat fighting, straight up killing our cats. They definitely got put down when we saw them. This is in the country, I could imagine the problem is much worse closer to big population centers with more food and fresh escapees. By the way, you can get cats fixed for free at certain places. Just keep in mind they dock one of the ears so they can keep tabs on the cats. Can't share a link right now I'm on break. I love cats by the way. Still trying to save up for a place of my own so I can own two. Unfortunately the housing market has been crazy and I probably missed my chance.