3 ms·

> I think if NixOS immediately sells someone, they're in. They'll get it. If not? Maybe in a couple more years. For me, it was on first sight. I disagree. I G

by bsder 3y ago

> I think if NixOS immediately sells someone, they're in. They'll get it. If not? Maybe in a couple more years. For me, it was on first sight. I disagree. I GET the value proposition of Nix. It's source control for your operating system and environment. This is valuable. The problem is that the activation energy for Nix is WAY higher than it ever was for source control. Recommending Nix is more like giving a beginner the advice "You really need to learn a scripting language." I regularly get pushback from junior engineers about this. However, it is almost uniformly one of the things that sets apart the average programmer from the actively good. To be fair, I get less pushback now that Python is more common. Nix is even worse that this. With scripting languages, you don't have to understand the universe in order to get "Baby's First" to work. With Nix, it's basically "The fields of Elysium are laid out ahead of you over there on the other side of that river. Oh, but the river is a half mile wide raging torrent of steaming sewage. But, trust us, you'll be much happier after you swim through it." Yes, I know I will be happier. But swimming that half mile of sewage is a LOT OF PAIN (from what I can see: about 6 solid months of frustration before you "Git Gud(tm)"). That's my view of Nix.

jchw 3y ago
I'm not saying that everyone who doesn't use NixOS just doesn't get it. I'm saying just about anyone who is immediately sold is probably correct. From a romantic point of view there's obviously a lot of cool ideas in NixOS. However, it's not just that that drew me in. I suffered through trying to find good ways to manage my configurations, things like Ansible and SaltStack, and dotfiles repos, and just felt unfulfilled by any of them: they're all just not proper solutions. Kludges at best, that solve a fraction of the problem at most. So when I saw NixOS, I got it. Not only did I get why it's good--someone who's just experienced enough would see that--but I immediately realized it solves the exact problem that I have, and that I was willing to go great lengths to get that solution. I don't think anyone who is not a fairly experienced programmer with a lot of time and effort to burn will have a good time with Nix as it is today, though. I hope whatever comes next after NixOS answers that part, because I think everyone deserves what NixOS can make possible.
colordrops 3y ago
Nix gets these sorts of comments all the time, which I think is rather unfair. People are comparing Nix to things like Debian package manager and config tools, or RPM, ansible, etc. But Nix is a fundamentally different and far more powerful thing. It's like complaining that a CNC machine is so much hard to use than your swiss arm knife. They aren't the same thing. If you are a professional developer, the effort put into Nix is rewarded in kind with the fundamentally new capabilities and assurances it gives you. You mention Git being a pain in the ass to learn, but I'm sure you'd agree it behooves you to learn it and not stick to older, fundamentally different systems.
- bsder 3y ago
  > It's like complaining that a CNC machine is so much hard to use than your swiss arm knife. They aren't the same thing. However, 90% of my knowledge of Tormach CNC machines also applies to Haas CNC machines--there's only about 10% that is specific. Even if Tormach or Haas goes away tomorrow, most of my knowledge that I gain on one or the other is still valid. If I learn a scripting language, 50% of it is about specifics and about 50% of it is transferrable. Learning Python gives you a lot of very similar concepts if you have to transfer to Ruby, Perl, etc. Nix, on the other hand, is all about the specifics. If another validated, configurable, source controlled system wins over Nix, ALL of my knowledge is dead. > If you are a professional developer, the effort put into Nix is rewarded in kind with the fundamentally new capabilities and assurances it gives you. The idea of Nix is fine. What I question is the implementation. We've already got a disaster of path dependence with Git. Something with a better UI should have come along (it has ... it's called Mercurial, but that's a different rant) but hasn't because of network effects. I want the idea of Nix but I have ZERO interest in helping to lock in such a disaster of a UI. The worst part ... I'm going to throw in. Too many people who I trust have thrown in with Nix for me to continue to sit on the fence. But, man, I will be definitely waiting for the replacement that doesn't have such a horrific UI.
  - colordrops 3y ago
    I actually don't disagree with you on the UX. It's horrible. If a group were willing to put in enough effort though, it's very possible to put together an actual GUI that edits config for you. I.e. you could have it do most of what the UIs in Ubuntu do, plus all the new features, then leave direct config editing to power users.

by bsder 3y ago

jchw 3y ago

I'm not saying that everyone who doesn't use NixOS just doesn't get it. I'm saying just about anyone who is immediately sold is probably correct. From a romantic point of view there's obviously a lot of cool ideas in NixOS. However, it's not just that that drew me in. I suffered through trying to find good ways to manage my configurations, things like Ansible and SaltStack, and dotfiles repos, and just felt unfulfilled by any of them: they're all just not proper solutions. Kludges at best, that solve a fraction of the problem at most. So when I saw NixOS, I got it. Not only did I get why it's good--someone who's just experienced enough would see that--but I immediately realized it solves the exact problem that I have, and that I was willing to go great lengths to get that solution. I don't think anyone who is not a fairly experienced programmer with a lot of time and effort to burn will have a good time with Nix as it is today, though. I hope whatever comes next after NixOS answers that part, because I think everyone deserves what NixOS can make possible.

colordrops 3y ago

Nix gets these sorts of comments all the time, which I think is rather unfair. People are comparing Nix to things like Debian package manager and config tools, or RPM, ansible, etc. But Nix is a fundamentally different and far more powerful thing. It's like complaining that a CNC machine is so much hard to use than your swiss arm knife. They aren't the same thing. If you are a professional developer, the effort put into Nix is rewarded in kind with the fundamentally new capabilities and assurances it gives you. You mention Git being a pain in the ass to learn, but I'm sure you'd agree it behooves you to learn it and not stick to older, fundamentally different systems.

bsder 3y ago
> It's like complaining that a CNC machine is so much hard to use than your swiss arm knife. They aren't the same thing. However, 90% of my knowledge of Tormach CNC machines also applies to Haas CNC machines--there's only about 10% that is specific. Even if Tormach or Haas goes away tomorrow, most of my knowledge that I gain on one or the other is still valid. If I learn a scripting language, 50% of it is about specifics and about 50% of it is transferrable. Learning Python gives you a lot of very similar concepts if you have to transfer to Ruby, Perl, etc. Nix, on the other hand, is all about the specifics. If another validated, configurable, source controlled system wins over Nix, ALL of my knowledge is dead. > If you are a professional developer, the effort put into Nix is rewarded in kind with the fundamentally new capabilities and assurances it gives you. The idea of Nix is fine. What I question is the implementation. We've already got a disaster of path dependence with Git. Something with a better UI should have come along (it has ... it's called Mercurial, but that's a different rant) but hasn't because of network effects. I want the idea of Nix but I have ZERO interest in helping to lock in such a disaster of a UI. The worst part ... I'm going to throw in. Too many people who I trust have thrown in with Nix for me to continue to sit on the fence. But, man, I will be definitely waiting for the replacement that doesn't have such a horrific UI.
- colordrops 3y ago
  I actually don't disagree with you on the UX. It's horrible. If a group were willing to put in enough effort though, it's very possible to put together an actual GUI that edits config for you. I.e. you could have it do most of what the UIs in Ubuntu do, plus all the new features, then leave direct config editing to power users.