11 ms·

Flying into a cloud is a big risk? They're everywhere!

by quasarj 3y ago

itsyaboi 3y ago
Not only is it a big risk, it's also illegal.
- dylan604 3y ago
  For skydiving as well. However...there are plenty of stories of intentionally falling through a cloud on your back so you can see a person shaped hole in the cloud as you fall through. So it does happen. But people drive >55mph too
psunavy03 3y ago
When you aren't instrument-qualified, get disoriented, and fly yourself into the ground, then yes, they are a big risk for the weekend warrior lawyers and doctors who never get an instrument rating.
- AdrianB1 3y ago
  What is qualified: trained or certified? There is a small difference between the 2 in terms of knowledge and experience, but a big one in legalities.
mschuster91 3y ago
Here in Germany, if you don't have an IFR (instrument flight rules) rating, you're not allowed to fly through clouds, because if you're not trained in using avionics or the plane doesn't have them in the first place, you are very very likely to kill yourself, your passengers and people on the ground. If you encounter unexpected clouds, you are supposed to GTFO... if you try to fly "under" the clouds, you may end up forced into the clouds anyway by natural elevation, minimum ground clearances or obstacles and hitting a mountain or whatever, and if you try to fly above the clouds you may end up being forced to a higher altitude than your plane can maintain, or you can't push down to a landing site and run out of fuel. In fact, unexpected clouds are among the top killers in general aviation with a fatality (!) rate of 86% - if you lose visual, you got 180 seconds to live on average [1]. Stay the fuck away from clouds, fog and other visual obstacles with anything that moves, no matter if it's a drone, a plane, a ship or a road vehicle, unless you are trained and certified in instrumental operation. You will either hit something you didn't intend to yourself, or you will get hit by something that could have avoided you, had your vehicle had collision avoidance systems (in aircraft, TCAS, in watercraft ordinary radar plus AIS - neither of which are a requirement in small vehicles). [1] https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2022/june/pilot/asi-tips-178-seconds https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2022/june/pilot...
- qup 3y ago
  > if you lose visual, you got 180 seconds to live on average Holy shit, why!? Are these planes crashing into the ground? It seems to me (an ignorant layman) that you would exit the clouds and have some time to regain control. I have no doubt that the planes are crashing, given the fatality rate, but why is it so unavoidable that they crash after entering clouds? Edit: found a little on the link referenced: " often ends in an unrecoverable graveyard spiral or spin"...I guess I just didn't realize that there are unrecoverable situations (given enough altitude). I'm going to blame Hollywood.
  - NikolaNovak 3y ago
    People's instinct and intuition are EXTREMELY incorrect in situation of your sight obscured while flying an airplane (and untrained and even trained personnel are extremely ill-equipped to judge their spatial awareness and capabilities in blind situations). People end up trusting their body reflexes that have evolved for very different situation and absolutely lie to you. When an airplane turns, the actual G forces upon your body are very different than, for example, in a car. So the body feeling we have that we are turning or going straight in a car, misleads us when we are flying. When you learn to fly, typically instructor will have a lesson where they obscure your sight (usually something called a "hood"), and let you fly by the seat of your pants for a minute or two. Typically, after a little while, when asked, student will be certain they are flying straight and level. Instructor will then remove the hood and demonstrate they are e.g. in a steep turning dive - something that would result in collision if allowed to continue. Airplanes themselves do not crash after 180s (in fact, most small GA airplanes are designed to level themselves if left unattended). People crash them after a couple of minutes with sight obstructed :<. (the Instrument Flight Rating is similar in USA & Canada as well, FWIW - you need to obtain that additional certification on top of your private license, to fly in clouds. Otherwise you are formally and legally constrained to VFR - Visual Flight Rules. There are extremely specific details on how close you are allowed to get to a cloud in every dimension, when you are and aren't allowed to fly, and what you must do if you cannot obey. These are drilled, tested, examined, and taken seriously)
    - 3y ago
lsh123 3y ago
There are studies about non-instrument pilots entering clouds (instrument meteorological conditions or IMC in aviation lingo): - in 60 secs the plane control is lost (though still recoverable); - in 90 secs the plane is in an unrecoverable attitude; - in 180-270 secs the plane breaks up or hits the ground. An example of someone who lived to tell the tale: http://www.37000feet.com/report/879711/new-in-type-private-pilot-aboard-his-PA46-lost-control-in http://www.37000feet.com/report/879711/new-in-type-private-p...
- K0balt 3y ago
  Mmmmm I’m going to take exception to this. It is certainly possible (and easy) to become disoriented in IMC. But every private pilot has at least a couple of hours of simulated instrument time and should be capable of navigating their aircraft back out of a cloud. You are taught, if you have a competent instructor, to ignore your senses and rely on the instruments in such situations, as well as recovery from unusual attitudes by instruments alone. I don’t doubt that people forget their training or don’t keep current however. Also, there is no such thing (for light aircraft) as an unrecoverable attitude that results in impacting the ground a minute and a half later. Any properly loaded certificated light aircraft can be recovered from any attitude if you have that much time. It takes a max of about 10 seconds to recover an aircraft from any unusual attitude and reestablish straight and level flight. A spiral dive (the typical situation with loss of visual reference) it might take 15 seconds since you have to bleed off the speed you picked up. There might be some extremely low drag aircraft that might be a bit more problematic in that regard, but they are typically also capable of much higher VNE limits.
  - voldacar 3y ago
    It's not possible to enter an unrecoverable spin in a light aircraft?
    - K0balt 3y ago
      An aircraft that cannot be recovered from a spin under regular loading must be equipped with a spin recovery drouge or granted a special exception in order to be certificated. Aircraft that are deemed incapable of entering a spin inside their operational envelope may be granted an exception. (Some stall resistant aircraft like the ercoupe or some canards, for example ) In practice, although many light aircraft are not certified for intentional spins, almost all of them are recoverable from a fully developed spin inside 1000 feet. YMMV with a large transport category aircraft however lol. A fully developed spin is like a seed helicoptering to the ground. It is a stable condition, with a low and constant rate of descent. It used to be taught as standard practice for c150 pilots to use a flat (fully developed, stable) spin to descend through clouds into a known safe ceiling if a non instrument pilot found themselves trapped above a cloud layer with sufficient clear space below the layer to descend into. Spins are not, generally, a boogie-man… but accidentally entering one during a steep turn near the ground is a really bad idea. I have more than one friend who has tried it , 0/10 would not recommend. One possible exception is when you have floats attached. I’m not sure of the spin recoverability of a light plane with floats, never tried it, but I do know mounting floats on many aircraft effectively voids their intentional spin endorsement and sometimes requires the installation of additional vertical stabilisers on the empennage. I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t want to spin my old t-cart on floats with a kayak tucked under one wing and a pair of rifles strapped to the other. Don’t have to worry about VNE with that outfit though lol.
grepfru_it 3y ago
One of the biggest risks of flying into a cloud while vfr is that you do not know what is on the other side when you come out. Could very well experience a mid-air collision, even though the odds seem low it’s a lot more probable than you think
- AdrianB1 3y ago
  That is the least concern. Spatial disorientation is the reason.
  - grepfru_it 3y ago
    You’re right! Because mountains and obstacles and other planes don’t exist
hadlock 3y ago
In plains states like Texas you end up with these super tall (500+ ft tall) 200'+ diameter convective clouds that have massive downdrafts and rain in the middle. Like a floating, wandering storm cell. On the outside they just look like tall white fluffy clouds on a sunny dry day. All sorts of atmospheric hazards.
pkilgore 3y ago
Flying into meaning literally inside. You can fly among them in VFR assuming you meet minimums for the airspace (3SM visibility, 1000 above, 500 below, 2000 to the side in most areas of the USA). I have only been in actual instrument conditions once with an instructor who was certified to do so under and instrument flight plan. It's disorienting. It's turbulent. Its impossible to avoid other planes (IFR the tower keeps you separated). Crosswinds and rain and landing are basically boring after a few tens of hours. But fuck clouds.

Flying into a cloud is a big risk? They're everywhere!

itsyaboi 3y ago

Not only is it a big risk, it's also illegal.

dylan604 3y ago
For skydiving as well. However...there are plenty of stories of intentionally falling through a cloud on your back so you can see a person shaped hole in the cloud as you fall through. So it does happen. But people drive >55mph too

psunavy03 3y ago

When you aren't instrument-qualified, get disoriented, and fly yourself into the ground, then yes, they are a big risk for the weekend warrior lawyers and doctors who never get an instrument rating.

AdrianB1 3y ago
What is qualified: trained or certified? There is a small difference between the 2 in terms of knowledge and experience, but a big one in legalities.

mschuster91 3y ago

Here in Germany, if you don't have an IFR (instrument flight rules) rating, you're not allowed to fly through clouds, because if you're not trained in using avionics or the plane doesn't have them in the first place, you are very very likely to kill yourself, your passengers and people on the ground. If you encounter unexpected clouds, you are supposed to GTFO... if you try to fly "under" the clouds, you may end up forced into the clouds anyway by natural elevation, minimum ground clearances or obstacles and hitting a mountain or whatever, and if you try to fly above the clouds you may end up being forced to a higher altitude than your plane can maintain, or you can't push down to a landing site and run out of fuel. In fact, unexpected clouds are among the top killers in general aviation with a fatality (!) rate of 86% - if you lose visual, you got 180 seconds to live on average [1]. Stay the fuck away from clouds, fog and other visual obstacles with anything that moves, no matter if it's a drone, a plane, a ship or a road vehicle, unless you are trained and certified in instrumental operation. You will either hit something you didn't intend to yourself, or you will get hit by something that could have avoided you, had your vehicle had collision avoidance systems (in aircraft, TCAS, in watercraft ordinary radar plus AIS - neither of which are a requirement in small vehicles). [1] https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2022/june/pilot/asi-tips-178-seconds https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2022/june/pilot...

qup 3y ago
> if you lose visual, you got 180 seconds to live on average Holy shit, why!? Are these planes crashing into the ground? It seems to me (an ignorant layman) that you would exit the clouds and have some time to regain control. I have no doubt that the planes are crashing, given the fatality rate, but why is it so unavoidable that they crash after entering clouds? Edit: found a little on the link referenced: " often ends in an unrecoverable graveyard spiral or spin"...I guess I just didn't realize that there are unrecoverable situations (given enough altitude). I'm going to blame Hollywood.
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  People's instinct and intuition are EXTREMELY incorrect in situation of your sight obscured while flying an airplane (and untrained and even trained personnel are extremely ill-equipped to judge their spatial awareness and capabilities in blind situations). People end up trusting their body reflexes that have evolved for very different situation and absolutely lie to you. When an airplane turns, the actual G forces upon your body are very different than, for example, in a car. So the body feeling we have that we are turning or going straight in a car, misleads us when we are flying. When you learn to fly, typically instructor will have a lesson where they obscure your sight (usually something called a "hood"), and let you fly by the seat of your pants for a minute or two. Typically, after a little while, when asked, student will be certain they are flying straight and level. Instructor will then remove the hood and demonstrate they are e.g. in a steep turning dive - something that would result in collision if allowed to continue. Airplanes themselves do not crash after 180s (in fact, most small GA airplanes are designed to level themselves if left unattended). People crash them after a couple of minutes with sight obstructed :<. (the Instrument Flight Rating is similar in USA & Canada as well, FWIW - you need to obtain that additional certification on top of your private license, to fly in clouds. Otherwise you are formally and legally constrained to VFR - Visual Flight Rules. There are extremely specific details on how close you are allowed to get to a cloud in every dimension, when you are and aren't allowed to fly, and what you must do if you cannot obey. These are drilled, tested, examined, and taken seriously)
  - 3y ago

lsh123 3y ago

There are studies about non-instrument pilots entering clouds (instrument meteorological conditions or IMC in aviation lingo): - in 60 secs the plane control is lost (though still recoverable); - in 90 secs the plane is in an unrecoverable attitude; - in 180-270 secs the plane breaks up or hits the ground. An example of someone who lived to tell the tale: http://www.37000feet.com/report/879711/new-in-type-private-pilot-aboard-his-PA46-lost-control-in http://www.37000feet.com/report/879711/new-in-type-private-p...

K0balt 3y ago
Mmmmm I’m going to take exception to this. It is certainly possible (and easy) to become disoriented in IMC. But every private pilot has at least a couple of hours of simulated instrument time and should be capable of navigating their aircraft back out of a cloud. You are taught, if you have a competent instructor, to ignore your senses and rely on the instruments in such situations, as well as recovery from unusual attitudes by instruments alone. I don’t doubt that people forget their training or don’t keep current however. Also, there is no such thing (for light aircraft) as an unrecoverable attitude that results in impacting the ground a minute and a half later. Any properly loaded certificated light aircraft can be recovered from any attitude if you have that much time. It takes a max of about 10 seconds to recover an aircraft from any unusual attitude and reestablish straight and level flight. A spiral dive (the typical situation with loss of visual reference) it might take 15 seconds since you have to bleed off the speed you picked up. There might be some extremely low drag aircraft that might be a bit more problematic in that regard, but they are typically also capable of much higher VNE limits.
- voldacar 3y ago
  It's not possible to enter an unrecoverable spin in a light aircraft?
  - K0balt 3y ago
    An aircraft that cannot be recovered from a spin under regular loading must be equipped with a spin recovery drouge or granted a special exception in order to be certificated. Aircraft that are deemed incapable of entering a spin inside their operational envelope may be granted an exception. (Some stall resistant aircraft like the ercoupe or some canards, for example ) In practice, although many light aircraft are not certified for intentional spins, almost all of them are recoverable from a fully developed spin inside 1000 feet. YMMV with a large transport category aircraft however lol. A fully developed spin is like a seed helicoptering to the ground. It is a stable condition, with a low and constant rate of descent. It used to be taught as standard practice for c150 pilots to use a flat (fully developed, stable) spin to descend through clouds into a known safe ceiling if a non instrument pilot found themselves trapped above a cloud layer with sufficient clear space below the layer to descend into. Spins are not, generally, a boogie-man… but accidentally entering one during a steep turn near the ground is a really bad idea. I have more than one friend who has tried it , 0/10 would not recommend. One possible exception is when you have floats attached. I’m not sure of the spin recoverability of a light plane with floats, never tried it, but I do know mounting floats on many aircraft effectively voids their intentional spin endorsement and sometimes requires the installation of additional vertical stabilisers on the empennage. I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t want to spin my old t-cart on floats with a kayak tucked under one wing and a pair of rifles strapped to the other. Don’t have to worry about VNE with that outfit though lol.

grepfru_it 3y ago

One of the biggest risks of flying into a cloud while vfr is that you do not know what is on the other side when you come out. Could very well experience a mid-air collision, even though the odds seem low it’s a lot more probable than you think

AdrianB1 3y ago
That is the least concern. Spatial disorientation is the reason.
- grepfru_it 3y ago
  You’re right! Because mountains and obstacles and other planes don’t exist

hadlock 3y ago

In plains states like Texas you end up with these super tall (500+ ft tall) 200'+ diameter convective clouds that have massive downdrafts and rain in the middle. Like a floating, wandering storm cell. On the outside they just look like tall white fluffy clouds on a sunny dry day. All sorts of atmospheric hazards.

pkilgore 3y ago

Flying into meaning literally inside. You can fly among them in VFR assuming you meet minimums for the airspace (3SM visibility, 1000 above, 500 below, 2000 to the side in most areas of the USA). I have only been in actual instrument conditions once with an instructor who was certified to do so under and instrument flight plan. It's disorienting. It's turbulent. Its impossible to avoid other planes (IFR the tower keeps you separated). Crosswinds and rain and landing are basically boring after a few tens of hours. But fuck clouds.