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Its really quite surprising just how many American issues come down to this. Much of the identity-politics driven discussion of late can really just be boiled d

Its really quite surprising just how many American issues come down to this. Much of the identity-politics driven discussion of late can really just be boiled down to liberal vs conservative / right vs left.

Eisenstein 3y ago
I have noticed that people who are steadfast in positions and don't listen to reason and subscribe to 'identity' politics on both the left and right differ mainly in where they were raised and by who raised them. The Berkeley folk who mandate it illegal to burn wood in your own fireplace have more in common with people who think trans people should be forced to live as the gender defined at birth than they do with people who think we should listen to each other reasonably and have empathy. The problem is that when one set of people get weaponized by folks who are legitimately nefarious and or criminally stupid and mentally ill, there is not no moral stance which is effectively 'I don't like some people on one side so I will let the demonstrably dangerous people take the power and do what they want'. Do you have a solution to this? Because otherwise giving 'both sides are just as bad' speech is borderline negligent.
- jdechko 3y ago
  “Don’t tell me what to do.” Brought to you by the party of telling people what they should do.
- kelnos 3y ago
  I'll start off by saying I don't have a solution. But if I don't have any alternatives, I'd much rather have the "you can't burn wood in your fireplace" people in charge than the "force people to live as the gender assigned at birth" people. One of those people is pushing policy that ultimately saves the human race from making the planet uninhabitable, while the other is imposing their small-minded religious worldview on people who have nothing to do with them. And this is the thing that bothers me so much with the "both sides are just as bad" argument. Yes, agreed, they are, when it comes to listening to each other with empathy. I totally get that frustration, and I'm sick of the left/right culture war; both sides are to blame for perpetuating it. Further, I think it's unfair to say that these two groups have more in common with each other than people who can listen with empathy; you're just comparing two unrelated axes of commonality.
  - Eisenstein 3y ago
    I agree with you on all points. I was straining to think of a good example of the 'left-wing authoritarian' but I have definitely experienced it, and apart the location of birth they are the same exact people who are just as intolerant on right. On aggregate all humans operate pretty much the same everywhere in the way they think and operate -- the only difference is experiences and culture. That was the the point I was making -- we are never going to be rid of the people responsible for throwing wrenches in the political works. Tangent: I think the only way this gets fixed is by putting a benevolent AI in charge of everything.
    - immibis 3y ago
      The example of "left-wing authoritarian" is all the so-called "communist" countries of the past century. USSR, China, North Korea. The problem, of course, is that none of them were actually left-wing. They were all just bog-standard dictatorships, using left-wing-ism as their excuse to maintain power, but not actually doing left-wing-ism.
      - hellojesus 3y ago
        Going back to the trans example, the attempts of Canada to pass compelled speech laws (and Michigan may have tried this recently too) would fall under left wing authoritarian practices imo.

Eisenstein 3y ago

I have noticed that people who are steadfast in positions and don't listen to reason and subscribe to 'identity' politics on both the left and right differ mainly in where they were raised and by who raised them. The Berkeley folk who mandate it illegal to burn wood in your own fireplace have more in common with people who think trans people should be forced to live as the gender defined at birth than they do with people who think we should listen to each other reasonably and have empathy. The problem is that when one set of people get weaponized by folks who are legitimately nefarious and or criminally stupid and mentally ill, there is not no moral stance which is effectively 'I don't like some people on one side so I will let the demonstrably dangerous people take the power and do what they want'. Do you have a solution to this? Because otherwise giving 'both sides are just as bad' speech is borderline negligent.

jdechko 3y ago
“Don’t tell me what to do.” Brought to you by the party of telling people what they should do.
kelnos 3y ago
I'll start off by saying I don't have a solution. But if I don't have any alternatives, I'd much rather have the "you can't burn wood in your fireplace" people in charge than the "force people to live as the gender assigned at birth" people. One of those people is pushing policy that ultimately saves the human race from making the planet uninhabitable, while the other is imposing their small-minded religious worldview on people who have nothing to do with them. And this is the thing that bothers me so much with the "both sides are just as bad" argument. Yes, agreed, they are, when it comes to listening to each other with empathy. I totally get that frustration, and I'm sick of the left/right culture war; both sides are to blame for perpetuating it. Further, I think it's unfair to say that these two groups have more in common with each other than people who can listen with empathy; you're just comparing two unrelated axes of commonality.
- Eisenstein 3y ago
  I agree with you on all points. I was straining to think of a good example of the 'left-wing authoritarian' but I have definitely experienced it, and apart the location of birth they are the same exact people who are just as intolerant on right. On aggregate all humans operate pretty much the same everywhere in the way they think and operate -- the only difference is experiences and culture. That was the the point I was making -- we are never going to be rid of the people responsible for throwing wrenches in the political works. Tangent: I think the only way this gets fixed is by putting a benevolent AI in charge of everything.
  - immibis 3y ago
    The example of "left-wing authoritarian" is all the so-called "communist" countries of the past century. USSR, China, North Korea. The problem, of course, is that none of them were actually left-wing. They were all just bog-standard dictatorships, using left-wing-ism as their excuse to maintain power, but not actually doing left-wing-ism.
    - hellojesus 3y ago
      Going back to the trans example, the attempts of Canada to pass compelled speech laws (and Michigan may have tried this recently too) would fall under left wing authoritarian practices imo.