3 ms·

> Heck, IBM could probably put together their own internal release of mitmproxy today if they cared that much. They could, and so could I, and most people here

by arp242 3y ago

> Heck, IBM could probably put together their own internal release of mitmproxy today if they cared that much. They could, and so could I, and most people here if they wanted to. That doesn't mean it's an unreasonable question to ask. If anything it's exactly the sort of question you would ask if you planned to make your own release, so you know if it's going to be worth the effort.

lolinder 3y ago
Agreed. See my first sentence: > The initial question was polite and reasonable, as was @mhils's response.
- arp242 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - gameman144 3y ago
    I don't find it unreasonable at all, the author is under no obligation to communicate in any particular way. If a stranger drives through my neighborhood and asks "when are you going to plant begonias? I drive through here all the time but I want to see begonias", a fine response is "if you want to pay for some begonias, I'll plant them!"
    - arp242 3y ago
      You don't have a "begonias, open for everyone to view" sign though. The comparison makes no sense.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - gameman144 3y ago
        Fair enough, a better comparison might be that my "begonias for everyone to view" yard has a stranger say "when are you going to get bigger begonias?" The response is then the same.
        Shaanie 3y ago
        You have "begonias for everyone to view" and purchased a bigger begonia (visible to everyone but not yet planted), and a stranger asks "when are you going to plant the big begonia?". Doesn't sound strange or entitled to me.
        gameman144 3y ago
        Totally, it's not strange or entitled to ask. But it's also not strange or entitled to reply with "when I get around to it, unless you want to come help!"
      - account42 3y ago
        Right, instead mitmproxy comes with this sign: THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM, OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE SOFTWARE. So not only is there not "begonias, open for everyone to view" sign in this case but there is a big sign saying "NO BEGONIAS GUARANTEED. IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE PLANTS WE CURRENTLY HAVE, THAT'S NOT OUR PROBLEM."
  - lolinder 3y ago
    The maintainer could theoretically have responded a bit more gently, but if I got that response to a query on a GitHub PR, I would have thought "oops, touched a nerve" and apologized for coming off as pushy. Maintainers are humans, and they're humans who deal with an insane amount of entitlement from unreasonable people. Their "I'm being exploited" nerves are a little oversensitive from repeated exposure, and that's understandable and forgivable. Besides, the fact that the IBM employee followed up the way they did shows that Maximilian's "I'm being exploited" reaction was dead on—the person he was dealing with was not being reasonable. They responded to a very slight escalation in tone by throwing around dangerous words like "extortion". Would you have done that?
    - arp242 3y ago
      Obviously "apologized for coming off as pushy" would have been better, yes, but it's not just the maintainers who are human: turns out IBM engineers are also human. It's a simple question that can have a simple answer; there's no reason to not give it, really.
      - vsl 3y ago
        You don’t give planned release dates to customers as a rule of thumb for the simple reason that somebody will take it as a promise and complain when you miss the date for some reason. It’s a lesson you learn quickly. This goes double for Open Source projects. And the person asking is a leecher like here, I definitely wouldn’t commit to date either.
- hitekker 3y ago
  I think you’re right; the conversation was civil until the requestor started accusing the maintainer of extortion. Some people in this thread didn’t read that far, and now seem to be to twisting reality to defend their judgement.

by arp242 3y ago

lolinder 3y ago

Agreed. See my first sentence: > The initial question was polite and reasonable, as was @mhils's response.

arp242 3y ago
[flagged]
- gameman144 3y ago
  I don't find it unreasonable at all, the author is under no obligation to communicate in any particular way. If a stranger drives through my neighborhood and asks "when are you going to plant begonias? I drive through here all the time but I want to see begonias", a fine response is "if you want to pay for some begonias, I'll plant them!"
  - arp242 3y ago
    You don't have a "begonias, open for everyone to view" sign though. The comparison makes no sense.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - gameman144 3y ago
      Fair enough, a better comparison might be that my "begonias for everyone to view" yard has a stranger say "when are you going to get bigger begonias?" The response is then the same.
      - Shaanie 3y ago
        You have "begonias for everyone to view" and purchased a bigger begonia (visible to everyone but not yet planted), and a stranger asks "when are you going to plant the big begonia?". Doesn't sound strange or entitled to me.
        gameman144 3y ago
        Totally, it's not strange or entitled to ask. But it's also not strange or entitled to reply with "when I get around to it, unless you want to come help!"
    - account42 3y ago
      Right, instead mitmproxy comes with this sign: THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM, OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE SOFTWARE. So not only is there not "begonias, open for everyone to view" sign in this case but there is a big sign saying "NO BEGONIAS GUARANTEED. IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE PLANTS WE CURRENTLY HAVE, THAT'S NOT OUR PROBLEM."
- lolinder 3y ago
  The maintainer could theoretically have responded a bit more gently, but if I got that response to a query on a GitHub PR, I would have thought "oops, touched a nerve" and apologized for coming off as pushy. Maintainers are humans, and they're humans who deal with an insane amount of entitlement from unreasonable people. Their "I'm being exploited" nerves are a little oversensitive from repeated exposure, and that's understandable and forgivable. Besides, the fact that the IBM employee followed up the way they did shows that Maximilian's "I'm being exploited" reaction was dead on—the person he was dealing with was not being reasonable. They responded to a very slight escalation in tone by throwing around dangerous words like "extortion". Would you have done that?
  - arp242 3y ago
    Obviously "apologized for coming off as pushy" would have been better, yes, but it's not just the maintainers who are human: turns out IBM engineers are also human. It's a simple question that can have a simple answer; there's no reason to not give it, really.
    - vsl 3y ago
      You don’t give planned release dates to customers as a rule of thumb for the simple reason that somebody will take it as a promise and complain when you miss the date for some reason. It’s a lesson you learn quickly. This goes double for Open Source projects. And the person asking is a leecher like here, I definitely wouldn’t commit to date either.
hitekker 3y ago
I think you’re right; the conversation was civil until the requestor started accusing the maintainer of extortion. Some people in this thread didn’t read that far, and now seem to be to twisting reality to defend their judgement.