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I don't get the value prop of all vanilla. The overhead involved in building a react app is nearly nil with all the tooling we have. Sure CRA was slow, but vite

I don't get the value prop of all vanilla. The overhead involved in building a react app is nearly nil with all the tooling we have. Sure CRA was slow, but vite makes things sub-second again. It's like when remix people talk about progressive enhancement to me. Sure, cool, you can do things differently. But why? If you already know the ins and outs of a framework or tool and are productive with it, use it. I'm never gonna hire someone because of how much they "flexed" with their vanilla site, just like I won't hire someone who flexed with their cool fresh-from-bootcamp react animations.

aobdev 3y ago
It’s not a value prop, it’s just a statement of remembering to use the right tools. You even mention this yourself, just not explicitly, when you say “react app” and “vanilla site”. They serve different purposes and I’ve worked with many people who do not understand because react is all they know. Remix is an improvement over react as a framework though because you can fall back on native browser functionality where the framework will fall short (high latency, slow devices, no JavaScript).
- willsmith72 3y ago
  > remembering to use the right tools 100% agree here. But if I were going to rewrite a whole application, I'd need a really good value prop. > high latency, slow devices, no JavaScript I don't see why high latency would be improved by remix, you're still fetching everything it's just without the waterfall. I've yet to see a modern-ish device (going back to iPhone 7s) that struggle so hard with rendering that progressive enhancement is valuable. Are there modern devices which are that slow? Or browsers without js?
  - aobdev 3y ago
    > you're still fetching everything it's just without the waterfall It's exactly because of the waterfall. If I have to make 3 roundtrip fetches, and the latency of each is increased by 150ms, then eliminating 2 subsequent fetches will save me 300ms. > I've yet to see a modern-ish device (going back to iPhone 7s) that struggle so hard with rendering that progressive enhancement is valuable. I have used an uncountable number of websites that are extremely janky, slow to load, and overall unpleasant to use on mobile while traveling on trains and busses between cell towers. Some of that can be attributed to ads but the reality is you don't need SPA's to serve news. Remix is cool in that it lets you develop like an app but serve like a website.
smarkov 3y ago
> The overhead involved in building a react app is nearly nil with all the tooling we have. All the tooling we have is exactly why React has an overhead which is far from nil. Every package goes through a period of changing its best practices, some go through multiple. Entire packages go in and out of season, seemingly depending on the phase of the moon. There's a new bundler every year, each with its own quirks. For some things there's 4 "go to" packages that achieve the same thing but take a different path to get there. You have all these packages and tooling you have to learn, stay in touch with, maintain and fight against. All of that so you could ship megabytes of JS that ultimately just changes some text on a page. You can do all of that with vanilla JS and spare yourself the headache.
- rmilejczz 3y ago
  Strongly disagree npm install -g vite vite init my-react-app npm install npm run dev The most popular build tools have mostly stayed the same. Some things have fallen out of fashion sure like gulp. But overall the abstractions built over complicated tools have only improved and only made it easier to get started with web dev. I’d argue it’s never been easier to start a modern statically typed react app.
- willsmith72 3y ago
  It takes work to keep up with the latest-and-greatest in modern web frameworks. 100% agree. But if you're already doing that, because you work in the field, or are passionate about it, then that checkbox is ticked. I wouldn't do all that JUST to build a static portfolio, but if you already learnt and kept up with all of that stuff, then I still don't see why not use it.
  - sfn42 3y ago
    Because in a professional setting the guy who takes over after you also has to know or learn whatever tech you chose. I worked on a team maintaining solutions in React, Vue, angular, Svelte, JQuery and more. It sucked. Basically every task I ever did there was my first time doing that thing with that framework.

aobdev 3y ago

It’s not a value prop, it’s just a statement of remembering to use the right tools. You even mention this yourself, just not explicitly, when you say “react app” and “vanilla site”. They serve different purposes and I’ve worked with many people who do not understand because react is all they know. Remix is an improvement over react as a framework though because you can fall back on native browser functionality where the framework will fall short (high latency, slow devices, no JavaScript).

willsmith72 3y ago
> remembering to use the right tools 100% agree here. But if I were going to rewrite a whole application, I'd need a really good value prop. > high latency, slow devices, no JavaScript I don't see why high latency would be improved by remix, you're still fetching everything it's just without the waterfall. I've yet to see a modern-ish device (going back to iPhone 7s) that struggle so hard with rendering that progressive enhancement is valuable. Are there modern devices which are that slow? Or browsers without js?
- aobdev 3y ago
  > you're still fetching everything it's just without the waterfall It's exactly because of the waterfall. If I have to make 3 roundtrip fetches, and the latency of each is increased by 150ms, then eliminating 2 subsequent fetches will save me 300ms. > I've yet to see a modern-ish device (going back to iPhone 7s) that struggle so hard with rendering that progressive enhancement is valuable. I have used an uncountable number of websites that are extremely janky, slow to load, and overall unpleasant to use on mobile while traveling on trains and busses between cell towers. Some of that can be attributed to ads but the reality is you don't need SPA's to serve news. Remix is cool in that it lets you develop like an app but serve like a website.

smarkov 3y ago

> The overhead involved in building a react app is nearly nil with all the tooling we have. All the tooling we have is exactly why React has an overhead which is far from nil. Every package goes through a period of changing its best practices, some go through multiple. Entire packages go in and out of season, seemingly depending on the phase of the moon. There's a new bundler every year, each with its own quirks. For some things there's 4 "go to" packages that achieve the same thing but take a different path to get there. You have all these packages and tooling you have to learn, stay in touch with, maintain and fight against. All of that so you could ship megabytes of JS that ultimately just changes some text on a page. You can do all of that with vanilla JS and spare yourself the headache.

rmilejczz 3y ago
Strongly disagree npm install -g vite vite init my-react-app npm install npm run dev The most popular build tools have mostly stayed the same. Some things have fallen out of fashion sure like gulp. But overall the abstractions built over complicated tools have only improved and only made it easier to get started with web dev. I’d argue it’s never been easier to start a modern statically typed react app.
willsmith72 3y ago
It takes work to keep up with the latest-and-greatest in modern web frameworks. 100% agree. But if you're already doing that, because you work in the field, or are passionate about it, then that checkbox is ticked. I wouldn't do all that JUST to build a static portfolio, but if you already learnt and kept up with all of that stuff, then I still don't see why not use it.
- sfn42 3y ago
  Because in a professional setting the guy who takes over after you also has to know or learn whatever tech you chose. I worked on a team maintaining solutions in React, Vue, angular, Svelte, JQuery and more. It sucked. Basically every task I ever did there was my first time doing that thing with that framework.