6 ms·

"Wait, is that a lot?" - Windows

willcipriano 3y ago
The storage isn't soldered to the motherboard on a PC typically so you pay commodity prices for storage instead of Apples markup, making this less of a problem.
- photonerd 3y ago
  > The storage isn't soldered to the motherboard on a PC On a PC laptop it often is. Even on many all in ones now. Compare like for like for goodness sake
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    > On a PC laptop it often is. Even on many all in ones now. s/even/especially/ This used to be unheard of on PC laptops. Soldered storage in PC laptops is a recent development (past 10 years or so)
    - photonerd 3y ago
      I dunno if I’d call a decade “recent” when it’s like… 1/3 of the lifetime of the form factor! But, yes. It’s a form factor thing really, as people want smaller, thinner, lighter, laptops. Memory (and battery) removability gets sacrificed as those aren’t a priority for most customers
  - sudosysgen 3y ago
    Huh? Which PC laptops have soldered storage? Soldered RAM, yes, but soldered SSDs?
    - photonerd 3y ago
      Most high end ones that have a slim form factor. Don’t know if you’ve looked at that segment but, maybe it’s not what you loop for, but it started not long after Apple did (HP & Dell’s MacBook Pro design-ripoff series especially) Also many lower end laptops have done it for a looooong time.
    - proprietario 3y ago
      literally soldered cases, where you can't even get to the internals (eg. hp)
    - c0balt 3y ago
      Many low end laptops, like some chromebook, feature soldered eMMC. For example, the first thing that I found on the google store, a samsung chromebook[0]. [0]: https://www.google.com/chromebook/discover/pdp-samsung-galaxy-chromebook-go/sku-samsung-galaxy-chromebook-go-basic-4gb-32gb/ https://www.google.com/chromebook/discover/pdp-samsung-galax...
      - sudosysgen 3y ago
        Those are quite literally not PCs, though. They are laptops, but they are much closer to a cellphone than to a PC. They're far more comparable to an iPad than to a Mac, if we're still in that comparison.
        hypercube33 3y ago
        Most of them can boot Windows and are x86-64. How are they not laptops?
        starttoaster 3y ago
        They said they are laptops, they’re not PCs. “PC” is a Windows term, traditionally. So a Chromebook is quite literally not a PC. You say they can boot Windows, so that makes the argument a bit less solid, but it wasn’t sold as a PC, then. In my opinion, continuing this line of argument is kind of silly, the point is that most decent consumer laptops that come provisioned with Windows still have replaceable storage. Or maybe I’m just very lucky and all the laptops I’ve purchased did. Even my mini-PCs like Intel NUCs have replaceable storage.
        doubled112 3y ago
        I had an HP laptop that shipped with Windows 10. 32GB eMMC, not enough to do a feature update. The Celeron and 4GB RAM were not ideal either. I think it was a PC. The low end of PCs is amazingly awful.
        wkat4242 3y ago
    - filleduchaos 3y ago
      2 minutes of searching for various combinations of "windows laptop", "soldered SSD" and "upgradeable SSD" turned up e.g. Dell's XPS 13, which is not an obscure or low-end device by any metric.
      - sudosysgen 3y ago
        You're correct, it seems like from 2022 the base version of the XPS 13 unfortunately can't have it's SSD upgraded. I searched too, but I looked at the XPS 13 for 2023, which only comes in the Plus model, and that one can be upgraded.
- lisper 3y ago
  > The storage isn't soldered to the motherboard What difference does that make? The old version just needs to be kept on disk, not in RAM.
  - masfuerte 3y ago
    The "disk" is chips soldered to the motherboard.
    - lisper 3y ago
      One of the disks is. Not all of them are. There is this wonderful technology called "external storage". But even if the backup has to be stored on the on-board SSD for some reason, so what? It's temporary. That storage can be reclaimed when it's needed. MacOS is already using on-board SSD behind the scenes for Time Machine backups when you don't have an external drive attached. I see absolutely no reason why it could not do the same for a rollback image. The real reason you can't roll back is simply that Apple doesn't want to allow it, because that would make it easier for the market to reject one of their updates.
      - mcpackieh 3y ago
        > The real reason you can't roll back is simply that Apple doesn't want to allow it, because that would make it easier for the market to reject one of their updates. Bingo. OpenSUSE makes it easy using BTRFS snapshots, enabled by default. Apple and Microsoft could make it easy too but empowering users like this isn't in their interest.
      - postmodest 3y ago
        > The real reason you can't roll back is simply that Apple doesn't want to allow it, because that would make it easier for the market to reject one of their updates. Right. That's why your Time Machine backups stop worki--oh wait, their integrated backup software lets you restore your disk to the state before the update. So your narrative is FUD.
        3y ago
cma 3y ago
Apple puts like 2GB of animated wallpapers into the sealed system volume, for your protection.
- paulmd 3y ago
  And the bitcoin paper https://coingeek.com/five-years-later-apple-removes-bitcoin-white-paper-from-mac-computers/ https://coingeek.com/five-years-later-apple-removes-bitcoin-...

The storage isn't soldered to the motherboard on a PC typically so you pay commodity prices for storage instead of Apples markup, making this less of a problem.

photonerd 3y ago
> The storage isn't soldered to the motherboard on a PC On a PC laptop it often is. Even on many all in ones now. Compare like for like for goodness sake
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  > On a PC laptop it often is. Even on many all in ones now. s/even/especially/ This used to be unheard of on PC laptops. Soldered storage in PC laptops is a recent development (past 10 years or so)
  - photonerd 3y ago
    I dunno if I’d call a decade “recent” when it’s like… 1/3 of the lifetime of the form factor! But, yes. It’s a form factor thing really, as people want smaller, thinner, lighter, laptops. Memory (and battery) removability gets sacrificed as those aren’t a priority for most customers
- sudosysgen 3y ago
  Huh? Which PC laptops have soldered storage? Soldered RAM, yes, but soldered SSDs?
  - photonerd 3y ago
    Most high end ones that have a slim form factor. Don’t know if you’ve looked at that segment but, maybe it’s not what you loop for, but it started not long after Apple did (HP & Dell’s MacBook Pro design-ripoff series especially) Also many lower end laptops have done it for a looooong time.
  - proprietario 3y ago
    literally soldered cases, where you can't even get to the internals (eg. hp)
  - c0balt 3y ago
    Many low end laptops, like some chromebook, feature soldered eMMC. For example, the first thing that I found on the google store, a samsung chromebook[0]. [0]: https://www.google.com/chromebook/discover/pdp-samsung-galaxy-chromebook-go/sku-samsung-galaxy-chromebook-go-basic-4gb-32gb/ https://www.google.com/chromebook/discover/pdp-samsung-galax...
    - sudosysgen 3y ago
      Those are quite literally not PCs, though. They are laptops, but they are much closer to a cellphone than to a PC. They're far more comparable to an iPad than to a Mac, if we're still in that comparison.
      - hypercube33 3y ago
        Most of them can boot Windows and are x86-64. How are they not laptops?
        starttoaster 3y ago
        They said they are laptops, they’re not PCs. “PC” is a Windows term, traditionally. So a Chromebook is quite literally not a PC. You say they can boot Windows, so that makes the argument a bit less solid, but it wasn’t sold as a PC, then. In my opinion, continuing this line of argument is kind of silly, the point is that most decent consumer laptops that come provisioned with Windows still have replaceable storage. Or maybe I’m just very lucky and all the laptops I’ve purchased did. Even my mini-PCs like Intel NUCs have replaceable storage.
      - doubled112 3y ago
        I had an HP laptop that shipped with Windows 10. 32GB eMMC, not enough to do a feature update. The Celeron and 4GB RAM were not ideal either. I think it was a PC. The low end of PCs is amazingly awful.
        wkat4242 3y ago
  - filleduchaos 3y ago
    2 minutes of searching for various combinations of "windows laptop", "soldered SSD" and "upgradeable SSD" turned up e.g. Dell's XPS 13, which is not an obscure or low-end device by any metric.
    - sudosysgen 3y ago
      You're correct, it seems like from 2022 the base version of the XPS 13 unfortunately can't have it's SSD upgraded. I searched too, but I looked at the XPS 13 for 2023, which only comes in the Plus model, and that one can be upgraded.
lisper 3y ago
> The storage isn't soldered to the motherboard What difference does that make? The old version just needs to be kept on disk, not in RAM.
- masfuerte 3y ago
  The "disk" is chips soldered to the motherboard.
  - lisper 3y ago
    One of the disks is. Not all of them are. There is this wonderful technology called "external storage". But even if the backup has to be stored on the on-board SSD for some reason, so what? It's temporary. That storage can be reclaimed when it's needed. MacOS is already using on-board SSD behind the scenes for Time Machine backups when you don't have an external drive attached. I see absolutely no reason why it could not do the same for a rollback image. The real reason you can't roll back is simply that Apple doesn't want to allow it, because that would make it easier for the market to reject one of their updates.
    - mcpackieh 3y ago
      > The real reason you can't roll back is simply that Apple doesn't want to allow it, because that would make it easier for the market to reject one of their updates. Bingo. OpenSUSE makes it easy using BTRFS snapshots, enabled by default. Apple and Microsoft could make it easy too but empowering users like this isn't in their interest.
    - postmodest 3y ago
      > The real reason you can't roll back is simply that Apple doesn't want to allow it, because that would make it easier for the market to reject one of their updates. Right. That's why your Time Machine backups stop worki--oh wait, their integrated backup software lets you restore your disk to the state before the update. So your narrative is FUD.
      - 3y ago

cma 3y ago

Apple puts like 2GB of animated wallpapers into the sealed system volume, for your protection.

paulmd 3y ago
And the bitcoin paper https://coingeek.com/five-years-later-apple-removes-bitcoin-white-paper-from-mac-computers/ https://coingeek.com/five-years-later-apple-removes-bitcoin-...