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Ok, thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

by rewmie 3y ago

bmitc 3y ago
Apologies, but I do tire of software and computer science constantly thinking that what they do is math. In my experience, software engineers and computer scientists know very little mathematics, generally speaking. Why do you think a CS major is like a mathematics major? Just because proofs and logic may be used in some curriculums doesn't make it a mathematics major.
- xcv123 3y ago
  Theoretical CS is hardcore mathematics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_computation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_computation
  - bmitc 3y ago
    That's certainly an area where there is very deep overlap. I'd even say it's just mathematics. But aren't those topics generally covered in just a single course, maybe two, in a CS undergraduate degree?
    - xcv123 3y ago
      Theory of Computation itself may be one paper, but an undergraduate CS degree will include much applied mathematics involving logic and combinatorics and so on. I completed a short 3 year degree in CS that included the following papers: - Algebra and discrete mathematics - Two papers in data structures and algorithms (including theorems/proofs, using CLRS as the textbook) - Secure systems (cryptography) - Programming languages (parser/compiler theory etc) - Theory of Computation - Logic Then I studied machine learning, which is a subfield of AI, which is a subfield of CS. That is a deeply mathematical subject, requiring knowledge of linear algebra and probability.
    - sdflhasjd 3y ago
      > But aren't those topics generally covered in just a single course, maybe two, in a CS undergraduate I'd say the bulk of my CS degree was discrete maths adjacent to computation theory. Honestly too much maths made me not like doing the degree (nothing against maths, I like it but I hate the way it's taught)
    - mardifoufs 3y ago
      In pretty bad CS degrees, maybe. Where I'm from, CS is mostly maths and there is a separate software engineering degree for those who want more software and less maths.
      - ModernMech 3y ago
        Your comment presumes the value of a CS education is that it is viewed and studied through a lens of mathematics. Otherwise you call the program “bad”. Many people have a different opinion of what CS is. Seems like you enjoy theory, so you went to a program that is heavy on theory. Smart move for you, not the same move others would make for equally smart reasons. Personally I think all of the theory is fine, but computer science is about doing science. You can do theory science, but there is a wide world of science that needs to be done beyond that. For instance, an HCI researcher may not work much with algorithms, but that doesn’t make them any less of computer scientist, although some jerks might like to think so. As for programs, most only have a core of 5-7 core required courses, along with a dozen or more other elective and general liberal arts courses. If more than a couple of the required courses are devoted to theory, then it’s probably tailored toward people who know they want that kind of thing. That’s neither good nor bad, but it doesn’t mean that other programs that don’t require more theory are necessarily bad. It may be that they just want to give students a broad overview of the field, and allow them to dive deep into theory with electives.
        mardifoufs 3y ago
        I genuinely don't think that theory is better. I just think that we shouldn't cram everything related to computers in a single degree. It's not feasible and it leads to overly generalist degrees which I personally don't find very useful (which is totally a personal opinion, not some subjective truth for sure!). Regarding your example, that's exactly why I mentioned that, where I'm from, we have a software engineering degree that is more common than computer science exactly because people want more practical courses rather than jerking about theory for three years. We even have a distinction between "Informatique" (computer science but more practical), "Mathématiques et Informatique" (more of a classical computer science course with tons of math theory). I think this is the best way to actually provide a diverse education path for different types of people. Otherwise you get a CS degree that basically sucks imo
- bruce343434 3y ago
  Isn't the study of algorithms a substudy of discrete math?
- rewmie 3y ago
  > Apologies, but I do tire of software and computer science constantly thinking that what they do is math. Software engineering is as much engineering as it is, say, mechanical and civil engineering: some applications explicitly require it, but others don't. Computer science has a solid math foundation. Lambda calculus, graph theory, category theory, process calculus, computational complexity,etc etc etc. This doesn't even take onto account stuff like numerical analysis and applied linear algebra, which is the core of high performance computing. It all comes down to what exactly you believe math is, and what it really is.
  - bmitc 3y ago
    There's no doubt that there's a lot of overlap between mathematics and computer science. Mathematics gave birth to computer science, after all. But what is under debate is the comment that "CS is really a mathematics major". An undergraduate computer science degree program is no more a mathematics program than an electrical engineering, physics, or statistics or data science one. But yes, there's no question that mathematics is highly applicable.

Ok, thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

by rewmie 3y ago

Ok, thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

Apologies, but I do tire of software and computer science constantly thinking that what they do is math. In my experience, software engineers and computer scientists know very little mathematics, generally speaking. Why do you think a CS major is like a mathematics major? Just because proofs and logic may be used in some curriculums doesn't make it a mathematics major.

xcv123 3y ago
Theoretical CS is hardcore mathematics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_computation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_computation
- bmitc 3y ago
  That's certainly an area where there is very deep overlap. I'd even say it's just mathematics. But aren't those topics generally covered in just a single course, maybe two, in a CS undergraduate degree?
  - xcv123 3y ago
    Theory of Computation itself may be one paper, but an undergraduate CS degree will include much applied mathematics involving logic and combinatorics and so on. I completed a short 3 year degree in CS that included the following papers: - Algebra and discrete mathematics - Two papers in data structures and algorithms (including theorems/proofs, using CLRS as the textbook) - Secure systems (cryptography) - Programming languages (parser/compiler theory etc) - Theory of Computation - Logic Then I studied machine learning, which is a subfield of AI, which is a subfield of CS. That is a deeply mathematical subject, requiring knowledge of linear algebra and probability.
  - sdflhasjd 3y ago
    > But aren't those topics generally covered in just a single course, maybe two, in a CS undergraduate I'd say the bulk of my CS degree was discrete maths adjacent to computation theory. Honestly too much maths made me not like doing the degree (nothing against maths, I like it but I hate the way it's taught)
  - mardifoufs 3y ago
    In pretty bad CS degrees, maybe. Where I'm from, CS is mostly maths and there is a separate software engineering degree for those who want more software and less maths.
    - ModernMech 3y ago
      Your comment presumes the value of a CS education is that it is viewed and studied through a lens of mathematics. Otherwise you call the program “bad”. Many people have a different opinion of what CS is. Seems like you enjoy theory, so you went to a program that is heavy on theory. Smart move for you, not the same move others would make for equally smart reasons. Personally I think all of the theory is fine, but computer science is about doing science. You can do theory science, but there is a wide world of science that needs to be done beyond that. For instance, an HCI researcher may not work much with algorithms, but that doesn’t make them any less of computer scientist, although some jerks might like to think so. As for programs, most only have a core of 5-7 core required courses, along with a dozen or more other elective and general liberal arts courses. If more than a couple of the required courses are devoted to theory, then it’s probably tailored toward people who know they want that kind of thing. That’s neither good nor bad, but it doesn’t mean that other programs that don’t require more theory are necessarily bad. It may be that they just want to give students a broad overview of the field, and allow them to dive deep into theory with electives.
      - mardifoufs 3y ago
        I genuinely don't think that theory is better. I just think that we shouldn't cram everything related to computers in a single degree. It's not feasible and it leads to overly generalist degrees which I personally don't find very useful (which is totally a personal opinion, not some subjective truth for sure!). Regarding your example, that's exactly why I mentioned that, where I'm from, we have a software engineering degree that is more common than computer science exactly because people want more practical courses rather than jerking about theory for three years. We even have a distinction between "Informatique" (computer science but more practical), "Mathématiques et Informatique" (more of a classical computer science course with tons of math theory). I think this is the best way to actually provide a diverse education path for different types of people. Otherwise you get a CS degree that basically sucks imo
bruce343434 3y ago
Isn't the study of algorithms a substudy of discrete math?
rewmie 3y ago
> Apologies, but I do tire of software and computer science constantly thinking that what they do is math. Software engineering is as much engineering as it is, say, mechanical and civil engineering: some applications explicitly require it, but others don't. Computer science has a solid math foundation. Lambda calculus, graph theory, category theory, process calculus, computational complexity,etc etc etc. This doesn't even take onto account stuff like numerical analysis and applied linear algebra, which is the core of high performance computing. It all comes down to what exactly you believe math is, and what it really is.
- bmitc 3y ago
  There's no doubt that there's a lot of overlap between mathematics and computer science. Mathematics gave birth to computer science, after all. But what is under debate is the comment that "CS is really a mathematics major". An undergraduate computer science degree program is no more a mathematics program than an electrical engineering, physics, or statistics or data science one. But yes, there's no question that mathematics is highly applicable.