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What a silly video. The argument he's making is called a unilinear teleology. History is not an arrow-line march from less advanced to more advanced, and it's i

What a silly video. The argument he's making is called a unilinear teleology. History is not an arrow-line march from less advanced to more advanced, and it's incredibly common for the apparent workmanship of artifacts to "regress" as styles and intentions change over time. Just look at all the people who complain about modern art because "classical takes more skill". Also, there's essentially nothing you can't do with stone given primitive tools, sand, and a shitload of talent/time. One thing about ancient people is that they had all of these in abundance. Making arguments from the position of "they couldn't have done this with the tools they had" is almost always wrong because it's coming from a modern perspective of how tedious and uneconomical it'd be to do it today.

tarikjn 3y ago
As someone who works with manufacturing, I don’t think it’s silly. Precision is not just a function of time available, manpower and talent, but also tooling technology. Manufacturing a single replica with today’s technology is believed to be challenging — and has not been attempted yet — but hopefully someone will take the challenge soon. There are no serious claims that these can be made with known ancient technology and time+manpower. Your response is often the response of people in archeology who do not understand precision manufacturing with hard materials, and shows how underrated these artifacts are.
- Starwatcher2001 3y ago
  Amateur telescope makers can make glass mirrors accurate to 1/10 of the wavelength of light using very simple tools and processes. https://www.bbastrodesigns.com/JoyOfMirrorMaking/Intro.html https://www.bbastrodesigns.com/JoyOfMirrorMaking/Intro.html
- AlotOfReading 3y ago
  This is not modern precision manufacturing and metrology, it's abrasively grinding down rock that's been roughly shaped. It's tedious as all hell, but well within the toolbox for ancient Egyptians (not to mention many other societies). There are a lot of options to do the rough shaping. Egyptians are known to have used abrasive drills for some artifacts, but other cultures often used rocks of the same or greater hardness as chisels alongside other mechanical methods for rough shaping. Again, you can do this to shape virtually any rock. Stonemasons don't do this today because it's excessively annoying and slow. It's not a coincidence that khafre enthroned is a royal piece for a wealthy and powerful pharoah.
  - gizajob 3y ago
    Have you ever ground one to prove this?
    - AlotOfReading 3y ago
      I've polished things with sand before and used hammerstones, yes. I'm not a stonemason though, just somone who spent a lot of time as a kid playing with rocks. Most people will have some familiarity with emery cloth/sandpaper, which are basically the same principle. We don't even need to look at fancy egyptian statues. Carnelian beads were a common trade item across the Ancient near east and Egypt made this way. It's not magic.
      - micah94 3y ago
        My issue has always been with the large megaton granite slabs inside the pyramids that you can't even see. They placed these things high up above chambers and rooms like lego pieces.
      - mrangle 3y ago
        The stones to which you are referring, and larger that are found in and around other structures, are too large to have been cut with the method that you suggest.
        AlotOfReading 3y ago
        I'm not sure which part you think is impossible, but it's absolutely possible to chisel a stone out of a quarry with stone tools. There were subsequent steps to work that rough shape down into the final product, of which abrasion was one of the last steps. None of them are especially sensitive to the size of the stone. We've found the rocks they used to do it littering known quarries, on obelisks and the like.
  - tarikjn 3y ago
    The rough shaping is not at issue. The challenge is maintaining tolerances along all axis and constraints on your detail work while using high forces and pressures to work the hard material. Grinding is a good guess for the possible material removal process — and it is up there today for the smallest tolerances using a mechanical process —- watch a video of a jig grinder in action. But what tool is used to hold or insert the sand aggregate at the pressure point? Are you suggesting that the vase is turned? That turning tool would need precise bearings itself to maintain that precision. According to archeologists, Egyptian didn’t even have the invention of the wheel yet at this point. These are all questions that people are looking for answers, and the best way will be to attempt to reproduce an artifact using various methods. I sincerely invite you to contribute by trying to elaborate the entire process that would enable this.
yesco 3y ago
> Also, there's essentially nothing you can't do with stone given primitive tools, sand, and a shitload of talent/time How absurd! Skill and craftsmanship can get you far, but they will not allow you to craft with such precision that it's imperceivable to the human eye, how could they even verify their efforts? The video, while long, presents dozens of well structured arguments with strong evidence, your dismissal comes off as extremely arrogant and foolish in comparison.

tarikjn 3y ago

As someone who works with manufacturing, I don’t think it’s silly. Precision is not just a function of time available, manpower and talent, but also tooling technology. Manufacturing a single replica with today’s technology is believed to be challenging — and has not been attempted yet — but hopefully someone will take the challenge soon. There are no serious claims that these can be made with known ancient technology and time+manpower. Your response is often the response of people in archeology who do not understand precision manufacturing with hard materials, and shows how underrated these artifacts are.

Starwatcher2001 3y ago
Amateur telescope makers can make glass mirrors accurate to 1/10 of the wavelength of light using very simple tools and processes. https://www.bbastrodesigns.com/JoyOfMirrorMaking/Intro.html https://www.bbastrodesigns.com/JoyOfMirrorMaking/Intro.html
AlotOfReading 3y ago
This is not modern precision manufacturing and metrology, it's abrasively grinding down rock that's been roughly shaped. It's tedious as all hell, but well within the toolbox for ancient Egyptians (not to mention many other societies). There are a lot of options to do the rough shaping. Egyptians are known to have used abrasive drills for some artifacts, but other cultures often used rocks of the same or greater hardness as chisels alongside other mechanical methods for rough shaping. Again, you can do this to shape virtually any rock. Stonemasons don't do this today because it's excessively annoying and slow. It's not a coincidence that khafre enthroned is a royal piece for a wealthy and powerful pharoah.
- gizajob 3y ago
  Have you ever ground one to prove this?
  - AlotOfReading 3y ago
    I've polished things with sand before and used hammerstones, yes. I'm not a stonemason though, just somone who spent a lot of time as a kid playing with rocks. Most people will have some familiarity with emery cloth/sandpaper, which are basically the same principle. We don't even need to look at fancy egyptian statues. Carnelian beads were a common trade item across the Ancient near east and Egypt made this way. It's not magic.
    - micah94 3y ago
      My issue has always been with the large megaton granite slabs inside the pyramids that you can't even see. They placed these things high up above chambers and rooms like lego pieces.
    - mrangle 3y ago
      The stones to which you are referring, and larger that are found in and around other structures, are too large to have been cut with the method that you suggest.
      - AlotOfReading 3y ago
        I'm not sure which part you think is impossible, but it's absolutely possible to chisel a stone out of a quarry with stone tools. There were subsequent steps to work that rough shape down into the final product, of which abrasion was one of the last steps. None of them are especially sensitive to the size of the stone. We've found the rocks they used to do it littering known quarries, on obelisks and the like.
- tarikjn 3y ago
  The rough shaping is not at issue. The challenge is maintaining tolerances along all axis and constraints on your detail work while using high forces and pressures to work the hard material. Grinding is a good guess for the possible material removal process — and it is up there today for the smallest tolerances using a mechanical process —- watch a video of a jig grinder in action. But what tool is used to hold or insert the sand aggregate at the pressure point? Are you suggesting that the vase is turned? That turning tool would need precise bearings itself to maintain that precision. According to archeologists, Egyptian didn’t even have the invention of the wheel yet at this point. These are all questions that people are looking for answers, and the best way will be to attempt to reproduce an artifact using various methods. I sincerely invite you to contribute by trying to elaborate the entire process that would enable this.

yesco 3y ago

> Also, there's essentially nothing you can't do with stone given primitive tools, sand, and a shitload of talent/time How absurd! Skill and craftsmanship can get you far, but they will not allow you to craft with such precision that it's imperceivable to the human eye, how could they even verify their efforts? The video, while long, presents dozens of well structured arguments with strong evidence, your dismissal comes off as extremely arrogant and foolish in comparison.