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So a lot of claims from lawyers that they operate in a free market are really not true. A free market isn't defined by whatever arbitrary criteria you make up.

by javert 15y ago

So a lot of claims from lawyers that they operate in a free market are really not true. A free market isn't defined by whatever arbitrary criteria you make up. You can't claim it's not a free market because it's a hassle to switch lawyers, or because it's expensive to do so, or because searching for lawyers takes time.

jerrya 15y ago
That's not the claim I made, and you didn't address the claim I made. I said: the consumer cannot just walk away. If I am buying a stereo, my choice is between a) do I need a stereo or not, and b) where do I buy it. The purchaser of law services usually does not have the option of walking away from the deal entirely. His/her choice is limited to: which of these expensive lawyers do I go with?
- javert 15y ago
  You also can't claim it's not a free market because you actually need the thing you're in the market for.
dantheman 15y ago
The fact that there is a bar and licensing means that it's not a free market.
- javert 15y ago
  Bingo.
ktizo 15y ago
Here's a nice definition from the OECD website's glossary of statistical terms; "A free market economy is one where scarcities are resolved through changes in relative prices rather than through regulation. If a commodity is in short supply relative to the number of people who want to buy it, its price will rise, producers and sellers will make higher profits and production will tend to rise to meet the excess demand. If the available supply of a commodity is in a glut situation, the price will tend to fall, thereby attracting additional buyers and discouraging producers and sellers from entering the market. In a free market, buyers and sellers come together voluntarily to decide on what products to produce and sell and buy, and how resources such as labour and capital should be used." Given this definition, it is hard to see how there could ever exist a free market in professional legal services and surely only a fool (or possibly a lawyer), would seek to argue that there is one in existence already given the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
- javert 15y ago
  That's a description of a free market, but not a definition. (The OECD saying it's a definition don't make it so.) A proper definition is: A market wherein all exchanges are voluntary, i.e., no force is involved. But yeah, it's far from a free market. I'm with you there. That doesn't mean we can sunder the term "free market" and say it's not a free market for a bunch of made-up reasons, which is what I was countering.
  - ktizo 15y ago
    "That's a description of a free market, but not a definition. (The OECD saying it's a definition don't make it so.)" Is that definitive? As the description of the definition of the noun 'definition' from http://thesaurus.com/browse/definition http://thesaurus.com/browse/definition defines definition as a description, of this I am definite. ;)
    - javert 15y ago
      Saying a definition is a description is a total dumbing down. I don't know why they don't teach this stuff in grade school anymore... they should. A definition must identify the nature of the units, i.e., the essential characteristics without which the units would not be the kind of existents they are. And The rules of correct definition are derived from the process of concept-formation. The units of a concept were differentiated—by means of a distinguishing characteristic(s)—from other existents possessing a commensurable characteristic, a Conceptual Common Denominator. A definition follows the same principle: it specifies the distinguishing characteristic(s) of the units, and indicates the category of existents from which they were differentiated. The distinguishing characteristic(s) of the units becomes the differentia of the concept’s definition; the existents possessing a Conceptual Common Denominator become the genus. Thus a definition complies with the two essential functions of consciousness: differentiation and integration. The differentia isolates the units of a concept from all other existents; the genus indicates their connection to a wider group of existents. For instance, in the definition of table (“An item of furniture, consisting of a flat, level surface and supports, intended to support other, smaller objects”), the specified shape is the differentia, which distinguishes tables from the other entities belonging to the same genus: furniture. In the definition of man (“A rational animal”), “rational” is the differentia, “animal” is the genus. Both are from http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/definitions.html http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/definitions.html

by javert 15y ago

jerrya 15y ago

That's not the claim I made, and you didn't address the claim I made. I said: the consumer cannot just walk away. If I am buying a stereo, my choice is between a) do I need a stereo or not, and b) where do I buy it. The purchaser of law services usually does not have the option of walking away from the deal entirely. His/her choice is limited to: which of these expensive lawyers do I go with?

javert 15y ago
You also can't claim it's not a free market because you actually need the thing you're in the market for.

dantheman 15y ago

The fact that there is a bar and licensing means that it's not a free market.

javert 15y ago
Bingo.

ktizo 15y ago

Here's a nice definition from the OECD website's glossary of statistical terms; "A free market economy is one where scarcities are resolved through changes in relative prices rather than through regulation. If a commodity is in short supply relative to the number of people who want to buy it, its price will rise, producers and sellers will make higher profits and production will tend to rise to meet the excess demand. If the available supply of a commodity is in a glut situation, the price will tend to fall, thereby attracting additional buyers and discouraging producers and sellers from entering the market. In a free market, buyers and sellers come together voluntarily to decide on what products to produce and sell and buy, and how resources such as labour and capital should be used." Given this definition, it is hard to see how there could ever exist a free market in professional legal services and surely only a fool (or possibly a lawyer), would seek to argue that there is one in existence already given the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

javert 15y ago
That's a description of a free market, but not a definition. (The OECD saying it's a definition don't make it so.) A proper definition is: A market wherein all exchanges are voluntary, i.e., no force is involved. But yeah, it's far from a free market. I'm with you there. That doesn't mean we can sunder the term "free market" and say it's not a free market for a bunch of made-up reasons, which is what I was countering.
- ktizo 15y ago
  "That's a description of a free market, but not a definition. (The OECD saying it's a definition don't make it so.)" Is that definitive? As the description of the definition of the noun 'definition' from http://thesaurus.com/browse/definition http://thesaurus.com/browse/definition defines definition as a description, of this I am definite. ;)
  - javert 15y ago
    Saying a definition is a description is a total dumbing down. I don't know why they don't teach this stuff in grade school anymore... they should. A definition must identify the nature of the units, i.e., the essential characteristics without which the units would not be the kind of existents they are. And The rules of correct definition are derived from the process of concept-formation. The units of a concept were differentiated—by means of a distinguishing characteristic(s)—from other existents possessing a commensurable characteristic, a Conceptual Common Denominator. A definition follows the same principle: it specifies the distinguishing characteristic(s) of the units, and indicates the category of existents from which they were differentiated. The distinguishing characteristic(s) of the units becomes the differentia of the concept’s definition; the existents possessing a Conceptual Common Denominator become the genus. Thus a definition complies with the two essential functions of consciousness: differentiation and integration. The differentia isolates the units of a concept from all other existents; the genus indicates their connection to a wider group of existents. For instance, in the definition of table (“An item of furniture, consisting of a flat, level surface and supports, intended to support other, smaller objects”), the specified shape is the differentia, which distinguishes tables from the other entities belonging to the same genus: furniture. In the definition of man (“A rational animal”), “rational” is the differentia, “animal” is the genus. Both are from http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/definitions.html http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/definitions.html