3 ms·

A "real nihilist" might kill themselves (hey, is anyone needs to hear this, don't kill yourself, and definitely don't kill yourself because of a thought experim

A "real nihilist" might kill themselves (hey, is anyone needs to hear this, don't kill yourself, and definitely don't kill yourself because of a thought experiment [1]), but most of the nihilists I've met have adjusted to their perspective and responded to it in a healthy way. (I'm not gunnuh engage in a Scotsman argument about whether that's disqualifying. But I'll grant there's an obvious survivorship bias there.) It turns out that believing in meaning isn't always necessary. [1] A friend mine put this very well once. We were talking about Meno, and Socrates' refusal to flee Athens, dying instead on the principle he'd entered into a sort of social contract (please excuse the ahistorical terminology) with Athens. "I've never heard Socrates talk about the social contract before," my friend said. "I refuse to die over a minor fucking principle." Dying for a thought experiment isn't romantic. Being rational in all things is actually undesirable, because not everything functions under rational principles (or we wouldn't need the concept in the first place, it would just be the air we breathe). In the same way that everyone can make a cryptosystem they themselves can't break, everyone can create a logical knot that they can't untie. It's a parlor trick, and not a reason to die.

adasdasdas 3y ago
Well that's why I believe most nihilists aren't actually nihilists. Also, I don't think believing in meaning has anything to do with nihilism. In fact, the sentence kind of implies you are speaking of objective meaning which is what grinds my gears.
- maxbond 3y ago
  > Well that's why I believe most nihilists aren't actually nihilists. Let's suppose for a moment you're mistaken. How would you recognize evidence to the contrary, were you to receive it? If you met a nihilist, you'd dismiss them, right? It's an approximately unfalsifiable construction. > Also, I don't think believing in meaning has anything to do with nihilism. It seems like you call it "purpose" and I called it "meaning?" I'm a bit confused on that point. Am I misusing terminology? > In fact, the sentence kind of implies you are speaking of objective meaning which is what grinds my gears. I meant meaning writ large, subjective or objective. If there's a different phrasing that wouldn't have contained this unintended implication I'm open to suggestions. An example of a line of thinking you might accept; a nihilist could decide go on living, just because they feel like it. It's entirely rational (and let me be clear, you don't need to avoid suicide on rational grounds anyway, it's entirely acceptable not to kill yourself for arational reasons) to decide you don't want to die because you're curious about what will happen if you don't, or because you think it would be an unpleasant endeavor, or because you've just adopted it as an axiom that you should go on living without any justification. There is no contradiction there. Really, presupposing that a life of suffering should be ended is asserting the existence of a meaning to life, just a negative one instead of a positive one.
  - adasdasdas 3y ago
    > Let's suppose for a moment you're mistaken. How would you recognize evidence to the contrary, were you to receive it? If you met a nihilist, you'd dismiss them, right? It's an approximately unfalsifiable construction. I think it's almost tautological. But most people are on a spectrum, there are extremely nihilistic people who still care about their mothers for example. But yea, I think that the spectrum of nihilism is just the inverse of the spectrum of willingness to live. > presupposing that a life of suffering should be ended I'm not prescribing action, I just think it usually ends up this way. > An example of a line of thinking you might accept; a nihilist could decide go on living, just because they feel like it. I believe many people live like this, but not because they are a nihilist, but because they don't do introspection and/or take meaningful things in life for granted, because just a tiny bit of introspection would reveal that there are many many things you find meaningful in life, even if its something basic like, security, health, or peace. If you take these things away from a person, they will probably contemplate their existence and try to figure out why they should go on with life.
    - maxbond 3y ago
      I'm gunnuh be blunt, and I mean no offense, but from what I've read of your arguments in this & adjacent subthreads, it seems you don't really understand what nihilism is and are actually talking about depression and suicidal ideation. You're saying very insensitive things about real people and a very touchy subject, and you've had multiple people explain to you at length what it is you've misunderstood about nihilism. I think you should take a step back and take another look at that, I'm not sure you've accurately estimated the weight of your words or the sturdiness of your foundation. This is as one human being to another, if I think I recognize a certain pattern of thinking and am asking you to reevaluate it, it's only because I've had that pattern of thinking in my own mind and someone else has drawn my attention to it in the past.
      - adasdasdas 3y ago
        You're right in that I might be callous in the way I write, but meaning/purpose is very relevant to life and death, and I really dislike when people spread a message of meaninglessness in the form of nihilism. Now there might be language challenges here, but I believe that people with narrow definitions of meaning will struggle to find meaning because a persons thinking is somewhat bound by language. My view here is largely inspired from Camus[0] [0]: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/camus/#SuiResAbs https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/camus/#SuiResAbs
- bamfly 3y ago
  "Being" a nihilist is kind of a weird idea anyway. It's more a feature of (parts of) various other world-views or approaches to certain aspects of philosophy, than, like, some thing all its own. Pessimists, broadly, are closer to a real definable "school" to which one might credibly assign hypocrisy at failing to follow through and off oneself (though there are various valid reasons that may still not really be fair). A famous example of this kind of philosophy in pop culture is Rusty in True Detective, who explicitly labels himself a pessimist, and who carries on not because he believes there's a reason to that he could defend philosophically, but because he "lacks the constitution for suicide", as he puts it himself. Though, again, even the pessimist school comes up with justifications for going on living (they just tend to lean more romantic, than couched in reason). TL;DR I think you're wrestling a ghost with this true- or not-true nihilist deal. I think the colloquial use of the term admits cases and views less-strict or precise/complete than you're insisting on, usually being a shorthand for some limited and specific case of nihilism (e.g. existential nihilist) that doesn't necessarily mean what you're expecting nihilism to mean, while some more-formal-and-strict version that exists as an all-encompassing School of Nihilism isn't really a thing to begin with.
- stevenhuang 3y ago
  You have a popsci understanding of nihilism. Nihilism in truth has no prescriptive value judgment on one's choice to keep living. Nihilism as a philosophy puts forth the notion that there is no inherent meaning to life; full stop. What you derive after this is your prerogative. Under this framework, living one's life to their fullest is equally as valid as killing oneself; there is no preference for one or the other, and there is no difference, as it doesn't matter. The inclination to associate nihilism to destructive tendencies is overblown by popsci and is valid only to the extent it is easy to argue nihilism allows for it, but it neglects to mention nihilism is completely compatible with other/optimistic ideals as well... as it doesn't matter.

adasdasdas 3y ago

Well that's why I believe most nihilists aren't actually nihilists. Also, I don't think believing in meaning has anything to do with nihilism. In fact, the sentence kind of implies you are speaking of objective meaning which is what grinds my gears.

maxbond 3y ago
> Well that's why I believe most nihilists aren't actually nihilists. Let's suppose for a moment you're mistaken. How would you recognize evidence to the contrary, were you to receive it? If you met a nihilist, you'd dismiss them, right? It's an approximately unfalsifiable construction. > Also, I don't think believing in meaning has anything to do with nihilism. It seems like you call it "purpose" and I called it "meaning?" I'm a bit confused on that point. Am I misusing terminology? > In fact, the sentence kind of implies you are speaking of objective meaning which is what grinds my gears. I meant meaning writ large, subjective or objective. If there's a different phrasing that wouldn't have contained this unintended implication I'm open to suggestions. An example of a line of thinking you might accept; a nihilist could decide go on living, just because they feel like it. It's entirely rational (and let me be clear, you don't need to avoid suicide on rational grounds anyway, it's entirely acceptable not to kill yourself for arational reasons) to decide you don't want to die because you're curious about what will happen if you don't, or because you think it would be an unpleasant endeavor, or because you've just adopted it as an axiom that you should go on living without any justification. There is no contradiction there. Really, presupposing that a life of suffering should be ended is asserting the existence of a meaning to life, just a negative one instead of a positive one.
- adasdasdas 3y ago
  > Let's suppose for a moment you're mistaken. How would you recognize evidence to the contrary, were you to receive it? If you met a nihilist, you'd dismiss them, right? It's an approximately unfalsifiable construction. I think it's almost tautological. But most people are on a spectrum, there are extremely nihilistic people who still care about their mothers for example. But yea, I think that the spectrum of nihilism is just the inverse of the spectrum of willingness to live. > presupposing that a life of suffering should be ended I'm not prescribing action, I just think it usually ends up this way. > An example of a line of thinking you might accept; a nihilist could decide go on living, just because they feel like it. I believe many people live like this, but not because they are a nihilist, but because they don't do introspection and/or take meaningful things in life for granted, because just a tiny bit of introspection would reveal that there are many many things you find meaningful in life, even if its something basic like, security, health, or peace. If you take these things away from a person, they will probably contemplate their existence and try to figure out why they should go on with life.
  - maxbond 3y ago
    I'm gunnuh be blunt, and I mean no offense, but from what I've read of your arguments in this & adjacent subthreads, it seems you don't really understand what nihilism is and are actually talking about depression and suicidal ideation. You're saying very insensitive things about real people and a very touchy subject, and you've had multiple people explain to you at length what it is you've misunderstood about nihilism. I think you should take a step back and take another look at that, I'm not sure you've accurately estimated the weight of your words or the sturdiness of your foundation. This is as one human being to another, if I think I recognize a certain pattern of thinking and am asking you to reevaluate it, it's only because I've had that pattern of thinking in my own mind and someone else has drawn my attention to it in the past.
    - adasdasdas 3y ago
      You're right in that I might be callous in the way I write, but meaning/purpose is very relevant to life and death, and I really dislike when people spread a message of meaninglessness in the form of nihilism. Now there might be language challenges here, but I believe that people with narrow definitions of meaning will struggle to find meaning because a persons thinking is somewhat bound by language. My view here is largely inspired from Camus[0] [0]: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/camus/#SuiResAbs https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/camus/#SuiResAbs
bamfly 3y ago
"Being" a nihilist is kind of a weird idea anyway. It's more a feature of (parts of) various other world-views or approaches to certain aspects of philosophy, than, like, some thing all its own. Pessimists, broadly, are closer to a real definable "school" to which one might credibly assign hypocrisy at failing to follow through and off oneself (though there are various valid reasons that may still not really be fair). A famous example of this kind of philosophy in pop culture is Rusty in True Detective, who explicitly labels himself a pessimist, and who carries on not because he believes there's a reason to that he could defend philosophically, but because he "lacks the constitution for suicide", as he puts it himself. Though, again, even the pessimist school comes up with justifications for going on living (they just tend to lean more romantic, than couched in reason). TL;DR I think you're wrestling a ghost with this true- or not-true nihilist deal. I think the colloquial use of the term admits cases and views less-strict or precise/complete than you're insisting on, usually being a shorthand for some limited and specific case of nihilism (e.g. existential nihilist) that doesn't necessarily mean what you're expecting nihilism to mean, while some more-formal-and-strict version that exists as an all-encompassing School of Nihilism isn't really a thing to begin with.
stevenhuang 3y ago
You have a popsci understanding of nihilism. Nihilism in truth has no prescriptive value judgment on one's choice to keep living. Nihilism as a philosophy puts forth the notion that there is no inherent meaning to life; full stop. What you derive after this is your prerogative. Under this framework, living one's life to their fullest is equally as valid as killing oneself; there is no preference for one or the other, and there is no difference, as it doesn't matter. The inclination to associate nihilism to destructive tendencies is overblown by popsci and is valid only to the extent it is easy to argue nihilism allows for it, but it neglects to mention nihilism is completely compatible with other/optimistic ideals as well... as it doesn't matter.