35 ms·

The cost of AC is more than just "stick a window unit in there". I live in the States, but in a centennial home within a historic city. The thought of a window

by z3c0 3y ago

The cost of AC is more than just "stick a window unit in there". I live in the States, but in a centennial home within a historic city. The thought of a window unit is downright laughable. The windows are single-paned and unsealed, made of wood planks that are decades old. Given how hot it is here, most people just blast their AC and opt for flat-rate plans on power. Thankfully, the Victorian-style homes here have high ceilings, attics, and crawlspaces, which allows for retroactively installing HVAC. Now consider Europe, where there are homes that exceed 200 yrs in age, and are sometimes made of difficult materials like stone and clay.

jefftk 3y ago
I also live in a "centennial home" (built between 1900 and 1920) in a "historic city" (Boston). Window units are very common here; I don't see what's laughable about them? How would a masonry building make a window unit more difficult?
- z3c0 3y ago
  Unsealed window units are terribly inefficient to the point of being cost-prohibitive for some. The more windows or rooms, the more it compounds. You develop "heat pockets" in the nooks and crannies furthest from windows. What's more, the air tends to move right back out, "air-conditioning outside" as my elders always called it. In homes with unsealed windows, adding central HVAC (if possible) can at least offer a central point of dispersal, so that as the air quickly disperses through the windows, the cooling effect does too. In the US, windows sizes are very standardized, and many window units are designed to fit snugly so that some degree of sealing can be achieved. In older wooden homes, you'll sometimes see entire walls replaced to accommodate standard double-pane windows, something very common in my city. With stone buildings, which can be very, very old, windows can often come in non-standard sizes, and may not open vertically or even be a rectangular shape. However, replacing a wall is pretty out-of-reach in that situation, either from difficulty and cost of the job, or municipal protections.
  - jefftk 3y ago
    > terribly inefficient to the point of being cost-prohibitive for some I don't see how? Running a small EER 11 unit all day on a very hot day is $1-$2. > The more windows or rooms, the more it compounds. The cost should be proportional to the number of window units you run, so if by compounding you mean it's superlinear I don't see how. > You develop "heat pockets" in the nooks and crannies furthest from windows. Ceiling fans work well at avoiding this. (Our house has them in most rooms) > In the US, windows sizes are very standardized, and many window units are designed to fit snugly so that some degree of sealing can be achieved I haven't seen this. Around here window sizes are pretty arbitrary, and every window unit has accordion bits on the side to block air exchange. > In older wooden homes, you'll sometimes see entire walls replaced to accommodate standard double-pane windows Weird; around here you almost never see that (only with gut renovations) and most houses still have their original arrangement. When they were switched to double pane they were swapped in place (usually with slightly smaller windows so no wall work was required).
    - z3c0 3y ago
      I think the point I keep trying to get across here is "a lot of peoples' environments and/or architectures do not accommodate this" and you keep rebuking with "well my environment and architecture accommodate this." I live in an area much hotter than Boston. ACs do not live long here; the rule of thumb is to expect half the life of that in a temperate climate. This means bigger units to combat the sweltering heat in the summer (90-110 F heat index, extremely humid) that are bought twice as often. Sometimes, it's actually more cost effective to just keep working your ACs to death and replacing them, particularly if you don't intend to live in the home beyond 15 years. All of this applies to window units as well. As I already said, window units don't install smoothly here - some windows get nailed shut from becoming too delicate. I have a couple that were sealed that way prior, and a couple more I'm planning to do myself. Even if I could get window units into the remaining windows, replacement can be very damaging. (Thankfully, I have central HVAC, like most people here.)
      - jefftk 3y ago
        I agree we're talking past each other somewhat. Taking a step back, Europe is a large area representing many different building traditions and climates. I'd find it very surprising if window units were uniformly a bad option across all of Europe. Your example of a place much hotter than Boston isn't that helpful here: the main question is what to do about occasional heatwaves in Europe, thinking about cooling options for places that are almost always tolerable without AC. (I also interpreted you as saying "The thought of a window unit is downright laughable" in a pretty broad context, but now maybe I think you were trying to say that specifically about in your city?)

by z3c0 3y ago

jefftk 3y ago

I also live in a "centennial home" (built between 1900 and 1920) in a "historic city" (Boston). Window units are very common here; I don't see what's laughable about them? How would a masonry building make a window unit more difficult?

z3c0 3y ago
Unsealed window units are terribly inefficient to the point of being cost-prohibitive for some. The more windows or rooms, the more it compounds. You develop "heat pockets" in the nooks and crannies furthest from windows. What's more, the air tends to move right back out, "air-conditioning outside" as my elders always called it. In homes with unsealed windows, adding central HVAC (if possible) can at least offer a central point of dispersal, so that as the air quickly disperses through the windows, the cooling effect does too. In the US, windows sizes are very standardized, and many window units are designed to fit snugly so that some degree of sealing can be achieved. In older wooden homes, you'll sometimes see entire walls replaced to accommodate standard double-pane windows, something very common in my city. With stone buildings, which can be very, very old, windows can often come in non-standard sizes, and may not open vertically or even be a rectangular shape. However, replacing a wall is pretty out-of-reach in that situation, either from difficulty and cost of the job, or municipal protections.
- jefftk 3y ago
  > terribly inefficient to the point of being cost-prohibitive for some I don't see how? Running a small EER 11 unit all day on a very hot day is $1-$2. > The more windows or rooms, the more it compounds. The cost should be proportional to the number of window units you run, so if by compounding you mean it's superlinear I don't see how. > You develop "heat pockets" in the nooks and crannies furthest from windows. Ceiling fans work well at avoiding this. (Our house has them in most rooms) > In the US, windows sizes are very standardized, and many window units are designed to fit snugly so that some degree of sealing can be achieved I haven't seen this. Around here window sizes are pretty arbitrary, and every window unit has accordion bits on the side to block air exchange. > In older wooden homes, you'll sometimes see entire walls replaced to accommodate standard double-pane windows Weird; around here you almost never see that (only with gut renovations) and most houses still have their original arrangement. When they were switched to double pane they were swapped in place (usually with slightly smaller windows so no wall work was required).
  - z3c0 3y ago
    I think the point I keep trying to get across here is "a lot of peoples' environments and/or architectures do not accommodate this" and you keep rebuking with "well my environment and architecture accommodate this." I live in an area much hotter than Boston. ACs do not live long here; the rule of thumb is to expect half the life of that in a temperate climate. This means bigger units to combat the sweltering heat in the summer (90-110 F heat index, extremely humid) that are bought twice as often. Sometimes, it's actually more cost effective to just keep working your ACs to death and replacing them, particularly if you don't intend to live in the home beyond 15 years. All of this applies to window units as well. As I already said, window units don't install smoothly here - some windows get nailed shut from becoming too delicate. I have a couple that were sealed that way prior, and a couple more I'm planning to do myself. Even if I could get window units into the remaining windows, replacement can be very damaging. (Thankfully, I have central HVAC, like most people here.)
    - jefftk 3y ago
      I agree we're talking past each other somewhat. Taking a step back, Europe is a large area representing many different building traditions and climates. I'd find it very surprising if window units were uniformly a bad option across all of Europe. Your example of a place much hotter than Boston isn't that helpful here: the main question is what to do about occasional heatwaves in Europe, thinking about cooling options for places that are almost always tolerable without AC. (I also interpreted you as saying "The thought of a window unit is downright laughable" in a pretty broad context, but now maybe I think you were trying to say that specifically about in your city?)