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People legitimately can't afford air conditioning.. That's of course before we address the elephant in the room. Using air conditioning increase the outdoor te

People legitimately can't afford air conditioning.. That's of course before we address the elephant in the room. Using air conditioning increase the outdoor temperature if the power doesn't come from emission free sources.

carlob 3y ago
Technically it increases the outside temperature regardless, though not as significantly.
jacquesm 3y ago
Indeed, power prices are quite high compared to the United States.
jefftk 3y ago
> People legitimately can't afford air conditioning. A small window unit is ~$160 and will last for years. If it's 5,000 BTU with an EER of 11 we should expect it to draw 454W (5,000 / 11) on a hot day (35C/95F, 50% humidity) when running on high. At 25 c€/kWh that's 11 c€/hr. At temperatures below that it will be cheaper.
- ricardobayes 3y ago
  That's American prices though for a unit, here window units don't really exist. In Spain the lowest price with installation is 600€ even for a no-name unit, and in Eastern Europe with its skilled worker shortage is around 1500€. The latter is from a friend who is very frugal and excellent in shopping around. There are simply no suppliers for less than that. I do agree that running it, if it's maintained and cleaned, costs really almost nothing. I've actually received a 15% lower electricity bill this month compared to last month and now I've ran my AC all day, every day.
  - jefftk 3y ago
    Thanks! Are window units illegal in Europe, or just not popular?
    - atraac 3y ago
      Almost noone here has vertical sliding windows that would allow window AC units. You could use internal ac unit with a pipe that goes to a collar wrapper around a window and that's a thing but they're loud inside so people use those as a last resort, when there's no balcony or anywhere to install AC(like old town buildings that are regulated etc).
      - jefftk 3y ago
        Some AC units fit in other kinds of windows, or can be modified to. My bedroom has horizontal sliding windows, and a few years ago I sorted out how to put a 16" unit in: https://www.jefftk.com/p/air-conditioning https://www.jefftk.com/p/air-conditioning
    - ricardobayes 3y ago
      We have windows that tilt and turn. Tilting windows are awesome because they can be opened just a little to let some air in and it is "held open" by gravity and a latch. So the window has one more "degree of freedom", making window units unpractical.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
    Sounds like the time is ripe for a budding importing entrepreneur to strike. Pretty sure you can find airconditioners on Alibaba for dirt cheap.
- z3c0 3y ago
  The cost of AC is more than just "stick a window unit in there". I live in the States, but in a centennial home within a historic city. The thought of a window unit is downright laughable. The windows are single-paned and unsealed, made of wood planks that are decades old. Given how hot it is here, most people just blast their AC and opt for flat-rate plans on power. Thankfully, the Victorian-style homes here have high ceilings, attics, and crawlspaces, which allows for retroactively installing HVAC. Now consider Europe, where there are homes that exceed 200 yrs in age, and are sometimes made of difficult materials like stone and clay.
  - jefftk 3y ago
    I also live in a "centennial home" (built between 1900 and 1920) in a "historic city" (Boston). Window units are very common here; I don't see what's laughable about them? How would a masonry building make a window unit more difficult?
    - z3c0 3y ago
      Unsealed window units are terribly inefficient to the point of being cost-prohibitive for some. The more windows or rooms, the more it compounds. You develop "heat pockets" in the nooks and crannies furthest from windows. What's more, the air tends to move right back out, "air-conditioning outside" as my elders always called it. In homes with unsealed windows, adding central HVAC (if possible) can at least offer a central point of dispersal, so that as the air quickly disperses through the windows, the cooling effect does too. In the US, windows sizes are very standardized, and many window units are designed to fit snugly so that some degree of sealing can be achieved. In older wooden homes, you'll sometimes see entire walls replaced to accommodate standard double-pane windows, something very common in my city. With stone buildings, which can be very, very old, windows can often come in non-standard sizes, and may not open vertically or even be a rectangular shape. However, replacing a wall is pretty out-of-reach in that situation, either from difficulty and cost of the job, or municipal protections.
      - jefftk 3y ago
        > terribly inefficient to the point of being cost-prohibitive for some I don't see how? Running a small EER 11 unit all day on a very hot day is $1-$2. > The more windows or rooms, the more it compounds. The cost should be proportional to the number of window units you run, so if by compounding you mean it's superlinear I don't see how. > You develop "heat pockets" in the nooks and crannies furthest from windows. Ceiling fans work well at avoiding this. (Our house has them in most rooms) > In the US, windows sizes are very standardized, and many window units are designed to fit snugly so that some degree of sealing can be achieved I haven't seen this. Around here window sizes are pretty arbitrary, and every window unit has accordion bits on the side to block air exchange. > In older wooden homes, you'll sometimes see entire walls replaced to accommodate standard double-pane windows Weird; around here you almost never see that (only with gut renovations) and most houses still have their original arrangement. When they were switched to double pane they were swapped in place (usually with slightly smaller windows so no wall work was required).

carlob 3y ago

Technically it increases the outside temperature regardless, though not as significantly.

jacquesm 3y ago

Indeed, power prices are quite high compared to the United States.

jefftk 3y ago

> People legitimately can't afford air conditioning. A small window unit is ~$160 and will last for years. If it's 5,000 BTU with an EER of 11 we should expect it to draw 454W (5,000 / 11) on a hot day (35C/95F, 50% humidity) when running on high. At 25 c€/kWh that's 11 c€/hr. At temperatures below that it will be cheaper.

ricardobayes 3y ago
That's American prices though for a unit, here window units don't really exist. In Spain the lowest price with installation is 600€ even for a no-name unit, and in Eastern Europe with its skilled worker shortage is around 1500€. The latter is from a friend who is very frugal and excellent in shopping around. There are simply no suppliers for less than that. I do agree that running it, if it's maintained and cleaned, costs really almost nothing. I've actually received a 15% lower electricity bill this month compared to last month and now I've ran my AC all day, every day.
- jefftk 3y ago
  Thanks! Are window units illegal in Europe, or just not popular?
  - atraac 3y ago
    Almost noone here has vertical sliding windows that would allow window AC units. You could use internal ac unit with a pipe that goes to a collar wrapper around a window and that's a thing but they're loud inside so people use those as a last resort, when there's no balcony or anywhere to install AC(like old town buildings that are regulated etc).
    - jefftk 3y ago
      Some AC units fit in other kinds of windows, or can be modified to. My bedroom has horizontal sliding windows, and a few years ago I sorted out how to put a 16" unit in: https://www.jefftk.com/p/air-conditioning https://www.jefftk.com/p/air-conditioning
  - ricardobayes 3y ago
    We have windows that tilt and turn. Tilting windows are awesome because they can be opened just a little to let some air in and it is "held open" by gravity and a latch. So the window has one more "degree of freedom", making window units unpractical.
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
  Sounds like the time is ripe for a budding importing entrepreneur to strike. Pretty sure you can find airconditioners on Alibaba for dirt cheap.
z3c0 3y ago
The cost of AC is more than just "stick a window unit in there". I live in the States, but in a centennial home within a historic city. The thought of a window unit is downright laughable. The windows are single-paned and unsealed, made of wood planks that are decades old. Given how hot it is here, most people just blast their AC and opt for flat-rate plans on power. Thankfully, the Victorian-style homes here have high ceilings, attics, and crawlspaces, which allows for retroactively installing HVAC. Now consider Europe, where there are homes that exceed 200 yrs in age, and are sometimes made of difficult materials like stone and clay.
- jefftk 3y ago
  I also live in a "centennial home" (built between 1900 and 1920) in a "historic city" (Boston). Window units are very common here; I don't see what's laughable about them? How would a masonry building make a window unit more difficult?
  - z3c0 3y ago
    Unsealed window units are terribly inefficient to the point of being cost-prohibitive for some. The more windows or rooms, the more it compounds. You develop "heat pockets" in the nooks and crannies furthest from windows. What's more, the air tends to move right back out, "air-conditioning outside" as my elders always called it. In homes with unsealed windows, adding central HVAC (if possible) can at least offer a central point of dispersal, so that as the air quickly disperses through the windows, the cooling effect does too. In the US, windows sizes are very standardized, and many window units are designed to fit snugly so that some degree of sealing can be achieved. In older wooden homes, you'll sometimes see entire walls replaced to accommodate standard double-pane windows, something very common in my city. With stone buildings, which can be very, very old, windows can often come in non-standard sizes, and may not open vertically or even be a rectangular shape. However, replacing a wall is pretty out-of-reach in that situation, either from difficulty and cost of the job, or municipal protections.
    - jefftk 3y ago
      > terribly inefficient to the point of being cost-prohibitive for some I don't see how? Running a small EER 11 unit all day on a very hot day is $1-$2. > The more windows or rooms, the more it compounds. The cost should be proportional to the number of window units you run, so if by compounding you mean it's superlinear I don't see how. > You develop "heat pockets" in the nooks and crannies furthest from windows. Ceiling fans work well at avoiding this. (Our house has them in most rooms) > In the US, windows sizes are very standardized, and many window units are designed to fit snugly so that some degree of sealing can be achieved I haven't seen this. Around here window sizes are pretty arbitrary, and every window unit has accordion bits on the side to block air exchange. > In older wooden homes, you'll sometimes see entire walls replaced to accommodate standard double-pane windows Weird; around here you almost never see that (only with gut renovations) and most houses still have their original arrangement. When they were switched to double pane they were swapped in place (usually with slightly smaller windows so no wall work was required).