4 ms·

I wonder how long Europe will continue to maintain the attitude that "air conditioning is a United States thing"

te_chris 3y ago
In London they've built a bunch of towers near me (a few over 20 stories) with no AC. Apparently the apartments were absolutely dire dure last year's heatwave. I'd say a wee while yet. London is not a nice place > 30C.
- flir 3y ago
  A small south-facing bedroom in a tower block without A/C is no joke. Especially when you've got those windows that only tilt inwards by about four inches.
jimbob45 3y ago
Hopefully permanently if heat pumps catch on as well as they have been. Edit: are heat pumps considered A/C?
- gattilorenz 3y ago
  Only if they produce cold (and dry) air, I guess. In general, with an air to water or ground to water heat pump you can technically cool your floor, but that won’t help much (you can’t go very low, to avoid condensation problems)
  - hnbad 3y ago
    FWIW with underfloor heating you can reduce the room temperature by a few degrees compared to the outside temperature but this is also generally the recommendation for A/C (which of course doesn't stop people from setting it way lower than that because they can).
    - gattilorenz 3y ago
      True. Even at the same temperature A/C does have the added benefit of removing humidity, which leads to more… tolerable heat.
- hnbad 3y ago
  Heat pumps are technically inverted A/Cs and can usually be put in inverted mode to act as regular A/Cs but they're often used to warm up / cool down water whereas a conventional A/C pumps the cooled air directly into the rooms. Heat pumps that work the same way are also sometimes called air-air heat pumps (contrasted with air-water, which in turn are contrasted with water heat pumps which pump brine into a network of underground pipes to create the heat differential). When picking a heating system my wife and I did look into air-air heat pumps but as we live in Central Europe and thus need the system for heating as much if not more than cooling and the building's insulation and rooftop solar panels already reduce the need for cooling outside very long and extreme heatwaves, we decided against it (and went with a more common air-water heat pump with underfloor heating) because they're not very efficient for heating. As I understand it, while underfloor heating retains heat at a stable level even when venting, airflow heating loses heat considerably more rapidly. To compensate, in order to heat up the room more rapidly, air-air heat pump systems often have electric heaters at the vents. These essentially work like an electric hair dryer and consume a lot of energy. On the other hand, underfloor heating is worse at cooling. Anecdotal reports seem to be mixed on both systems with the only consensus generally being that if you want either system to be more efficient you should look into insulation above all else.
- sebazzz 3y ago
  A/C are heat pumps. They pump inside heat to the outside, and any modern A/C that isn't a mobile unit can also reverse its mode of operation and pump heat from outside to inside. Heat, not air, you still need to maintain an healthy air balance inside (CO2, humidity).
martin8412 3y ago
People legitimately can't afford air conditioning.. That's of course before we address the elephant in the room. Using air conditioning increase the outdoor temperature if the power doesn't come from emission free sources.
- carlob 3y ago
  Technically it increases the outside temperature regardless, though not as significantly.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Indeed, power prices are quite high compared to the United States.
- jefftk 3y ago
  > People legitimately can't afford air conditioning. A small window unit is ~$160 and will last for years. If it's 5,000 BTU with an EER of 11 we should expect it to draw 454W (5,000 / 11) on a hot day (35C/95F, 50% humidity) when running on high. At 25 c€/kWh that's 11 c€/hr. At temperatures below that it will be cheaper.
  - ricardobayes 3y ago
    That's American prices though for a unit, here window units don't really exist. In Spain the lowest price with installation is 600€ even for a no-name unit, and in Eastern Europe with its skilled worker shortage is around 1500€. The latter is from a friend who is very frugal and excellent in shopping around. There are simply no suppliers for less than that. I do agree that running it, if it's maintained and cleaned, costs really almost nothing. I've actually received a 15% lower electricity bill this month compared to last month and now I've ran my AC all day, every day.
    - jefftk 3y ago
      Thanks! Are window units illegal in Europe, or just not popular?
tomp 3y ago
Switzerland is literally the worst. Homes and hospitals are forbidden from having A/C. Shopping centers are allowed.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  They are forbidden from installing split units, but you can have monoblocs as long as they are not fixed. So there is some relief.
  - xavieralexandre 3y ago
    You are not forbidden at the Federal level to have fixed units. But many states do indeed requires a permit to install fixed units. And have strict regulations such as self producing half of the electricity required by the installation. Here are a few examples of such regulations: - Geneva (the most strict state): https://www.ge.ch/installations-techniques-rafraichissement/climatisation-confort https://www.ge.ch/installations-techniques-rafraichissement/... - Fribourg: https://bdlf.fr.ch/app/fr/texts_of_law/770.1/art/16 https://bdlf.fr.ch/app/fr/texts_of_law/770.1/art/16 - Vaud: https://www.vd.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/themes/environnement/energie/fichiers_pdf/FAQ-batiment-energie-nov19.pdf https://www.vd.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/themes/environnement... One of the side effect of such regulation is that many business and houses will use cheap non-fixed units with open door and windows instead of installing proper reversible heat pumps.
- ricardobayes 3y ago
  Forbidden, as in, illegal? How did that came to be?
  - tomp 3y ago
    Green ideology? Degrowth mindset? The Swiss are very “save energy” oriented. Apparently some people have a hard time understanding that A/C use coincides perfectly with solar power generation.
    - ricardobayes 3y ago
juliangmp 3y ago
Air conditioning is already widespread in Greece. Also, I dont think 40°C is that uncommon for Greece.

In London they've built a bunch of towers near me (a few over 20 stories) with no AC. Apparently the apartments were absolutely dire dure last year's heatwave. I'd say a wee while yet. London is not a nice place > 30C.

flir 3y ago
A small south-facing bedroom in a tower block without A/C is no joke. Especially when you've got those windows that only tilt inwards by about four inches.

jimbob45 3y ago

Hopefully permanently if heat pumps catch on as well as they have been. Edit: are heat pumps considered A/C?

gattilorenz 3y ago
Only if they produce cold (and dry) air, I guess. In general, with an air to water or ground to water heat pump you can technically cool your floor, but that won’t help much (you can’t go very low, to avoid condensation problems)
- hnbad 3y ago
  FWIW with underfloor heating you can reduce the room temperature by a few degrees compared to the outside temperature but this is also generally the recommendation for A/C (which of course doesn't stop people from setting it way lower than that because they can).
  - gattilorenz 3y ago
    True. Even at the same temperature A/C does have the added benefit of removing humidity, which leads to more… tolerable heat.
hnbad 3y ago
Heat pumps are technically inverted A/Cs and can usually be put in inverted mode to act as regular A/Cs but they're often used to warm up / cool down water whereas a conventional A/C pumps the cooled air directly into the rooms. Heat pumps that work the same way are also sometimes called air-air heat pumps (contrasted with air-water, which in turn are contrasted with water heat pumps which pump brine into a network of underground pipes to create the heat differential). When picking a heating system my wife and I did look into air-air heat pumps but as we live in Central Europe and thus need the system for heating as much if not more than cooling and the building's insulation and rooftop solar panels already reduce the need for cooling outside very long and extreme heatwaves, we decided against it (and went with a more common air-water heat pump with underfloor heating) because they're not very efficient for heating. As I understand it, while underfloor heating retains heat at a stable level even when venting, airflow heating loses heat considerably more rapidly. To compensate, in order to heat up the room more rapidly, air-air heat pump systems often have electric heaters at the vents. These essentially work like an electric hair dryer and consume a lot of energy. On the other hand, underfloor heating is worse at cooling. Anecdotal reports seem to be mixed on both systems with the only consensus generally being that if you want either system to be more efficient you should look into insulation above all else.
sebazzz 3y ago
A/C are heat pumps. They pump inside heat to the outside, and any modern A/C that isn't a mobile unit can also reverse its mode of operation and pump heat from outside to inside. Heat, not air, you still need to maintain an healthy air balance inside (CO2, humidity).

martin8412 3y ago

People legitimately can't afford air conditioning.. That's of course before we address the elephant in the room. Using air conditioning increase the outdoor temperature if the power doesn't come from emission free sources.

carlob 3y ago
Technically it increases the outside temperature regardless, though not as significantly.
jacquesm 3y ago
Indeed, power prices are quite high compared to the United States.
jefftk 3y ago
> People legitimately can't afford air conditioning. A small window unit is ~$160 and will last for years. If it's 5,000 BTU with an EER of 11 we should expect it to draw 454W (5,000 / 11) on a hot day (35C/95F, 50% humidity) when running on high. At 25 c€/kWh that's 11 c€/hr. At temperatures below that it will be cheaper.
- ricardobayes 3y ago
  That's American prices though for a unit, here window units don't really exist. In Spain the lowest price with installation is 600€ even for a no-name unit, and in Eastern Europe with its skilled worker shortage is around 1500€. The latter is from a friend who is very frugal and excellent in shopping around. There are simply no suppliers for less than that. I do agree that running it, if it's maintained and cleaned, costs really almost nothing. I've actually received a 15% lower electricity bill this month compared to last month and now I've ran my AC all day, every day.
  - jefftk 3y ago
    Thanks! Are window units illegal in Europe, or just not popular?

tomp 3y ago

Switzerland is literally the worst. Homes and hospitals are forbidden from having A/C. Shopping centers are allowed.

jacquesm 3y ago
They are forbidden from installing split units, but you can have monoblocs as long as they are not fixed. So there is some relief.
- xavieralexandre 3y ago
  You are not forbidden at the Federal level to have fixed units. But many states do indeed requires a permit to install fixed units. And have strict regulations such as self producing half of the electricity required by the installation. Here are a few examples of such regulations: - Geneva (the most strict state): https://www.ge.ch/installations-techniques-rafraichissement/climatisation-confort https://www.ge.ch/installations-techniques-rafraichissement/... - Fribourg: https://bdlf.fr.ch/app/fr/texts_of_law/770.1/art/16 https://bdlf.fr.ch/app/fr/texts_of_law/770.1/art/16 - Vaud: https://www.vd.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/themes/environnement/energie/fichiers_pdf/FAQ-batiment-energie-nov19.pdf https://www.vd.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/themes/environnement... One of the side effect of such regulation is that many business and houses will use cheap non-fixed units with open door and windows instead of installing proper reversible heat pumps.
ricardobayes 3y ago
Forbidden, as in, illegal? How did that came to be?
- tomp 3y ago
  Green ideology? Degrowth mindset? The Swiss are very “save energy” oriented. Apparently some people have a hard time understanding that A/C use coincides perfectly with solar power generation.
  - ricardobayes 3y ago

juliangmp 3y ago

Air conditioning is already widespread in Greece. Also, I dont think 40°C is that uncommon for Greece.