4 ms·

The climate zones in Europe are being shifted northwards. Mediterranean/southern countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy are experiencing conditions li

The climate zones in Europe are being shifted northwards. Mediterranean/southern countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy are experiencing conditions like the ones from Northern Africa. Central European countries are having a milder climate, with more extreme “bursts”. Records are going to be broken over and over, especially next summer when the currently ongoing El Niño is going to “hit” us. Our planet is not happy with what we’ve done all these decades and we’re going to pay for it :-(

gattilorenz 3y ago
You are correct, but in practice the planet doesn’t care and will survive in any case. What we should have been saying, instead, is that we are going to be unhappy. The narrative about protecting the environment/the planet should have always been about protecting ourselves from the planet, because we have learned to do that already. A more egocentric message could have worked better for the general public. [edited to hopefully sound less snarky]
- jacquesm 3y ago
  > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - savanaly 3y ago
    I don't see how the poster was violating that guideline. I say that as someone who frequently thinks people break that guideline.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - alienicecream 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - gattilorenz 3y ago
    I know the op was in good faith, and the critique is not to him, but to how (I think) we failed communicating the correct risks to the general public in the last decades, which undermined the feeling of urgency/importance of the problem. I edited the original message trying to make that more explicit and appear less snarky, thanks for the feedback!
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      It's not the 'general public' that makes the rules and any one individual doing what they can isn't going to make a whole lot of difference as long as industry is exempted (which it is in plenty of places). Thanks for the edit, appreciated.
      - gattilorenz 3y ago
        Sure, but the urge of avoiding self-imposed extinction can change the political agenda and the regulations. I think we saw that for nuclear warheads (compare now vs the 60s), and (in the wrong sense) for nuclear power too. We’re sort of seeing it in the EU for AI right now! Of course the problem is that those feel like problems that could kill you or your kids, while climate change doesn’t. But again, that’s also connected to message formulation and correctly communicating the feeling of urgency…
        jacquesm 3y ago
        That depends on who you talk to. But, to make it simple: if COVID19, which arguably was a far smaller problem than climate change (even though it isn't gone and never will be gone), I think you can see that the degree of lack of global policy and unity while dealing with that is any precursor of what our approach to climate change is (and has been so far) that we're royally fucked. You can't solve global problems with local policies, especially not if those local policies undo each others' effects.
      - fulafel 3y ago
        In a quite real sense the general public does decide the rules through representative demoracy in western countries, and the ignorance and complacency of votersin this respect arguably result chiefly from failures in communication.
ecf 3y ago
Which partially explains why China and Russia are full steam ahead with the current pace of climate change. Huge swaths of their land is going to become arable.
- mc32 3y ago
  China needs more arable land for food independence. Does Russia? It’s not like Muskeg becomes arable.
ricardobayes 3y ago
Not trying to be pedantic here, but Spain has like 5 different köppen climate categories. Up in Galicia and Asturias it can be high tens/low twenties with rain during the day while it can be 44C down in Sevilla.
sebazzz 3y ago
This year we've placed aircons in our entire home (Netherlands). With a garden to the south-west, and rising temperature, and good insulation, it becomes quickly too hot here. And we can of course heat our home in the winter too, but we mainly did it for the cooling capabilities.
- voisin 3y ago
  Did you look at passive ways to block the sun on the south and west walls? It can be very effective, have a low up front cost and no operating cost.
  - sebazzz 3y ago
    I don't know what we can do. We already have a roll down sunscreen. Painting the house white is not something that will be accepted by the neighbours.
    - jwestbury 3y ago
      Though it depends on the particulars of your house and garden, there are ancient techniques -- "rediscovered" by modern permaculture -- that are effective here. Plant dense, deciduous shrubs and trees along the southern side of the house, especially in front of windows. The shade and the evaporative cooling provided by them should help to keep the house cooler in summer, whilst still allowing sun to heat the house during winter. It's not as effective as air conditioning, but it's more sustainable, certainly.
    - dutchabroad 3y ago
      Houses in Spain have stone floors, instead of carpet or wood that we often have in Netherlands. Maybe you can switch depending the season
odiroot 3y ago
And here in England, it's been miserable for over a week. Temperatures barely reaching 20s, if ever. Also rains on a daily basis.
- helij 3y ago
  I actually prefer this weather to 40 degrees Celsius.
  - voisin 3y ago
    Me too. Easy to throw on additional clothes to keep warm, but at 40 Celsius there’s nothing you can do when out, baking in the heat and showing up everywhere sweaty.
  - aldanor 3y ago
    Weather forecast in Dublin: +19 for the next ten days. Just perfect.
- engineer_22 3y ago
  You're getting down voted for the weather. That's amazing
throw0101a 3y ago
> The climate zones in Europe are being shifted northwards. In North American as well, at least per the hardiness zones that gardeners use: * https://gardeningcalendar.ca/gardening/gardening-basics/hardiness-zones-have-changed-with-climate-shift/ https://gardeningcalendar.ca/gardening/gardening-basics/hard... * https://landscapetrades.com/canadas-new-plant-hardiness-zones https://landscapetrades.com/canadas-new-plant-hardiness-zone... Similarly zones used in building codes: > However, with new research based on measured temperature data from over 4000 weather stations throughout North America over the last 25 years, the IECC designated changes to the CZ map for the first time in nearly 20 years. The outcome was that about 10% of counties in the U.S. were placed in a new CZ. In nearly all cases, the shift was to a warmer (lower) CZ, reflecting a general warming of the climate in those areas. The first set of maps below show the old CZs on the left and the new ones on the right. The shaded area across the west in the image on the right highlights the "dry" sub-climates. In most cases, the shift in CZ is relatively subtle. * https://www.jm.com/en/blog/2021/march/understanding-the-iecc-s-new-climate-zone-map/ https://www.jm.com/en/blog/2021/march/understanding-the-iecc...

gattilorenz 3y ago

You are correct, but in practice the planet doesn’t care and will survive in any case. What we should have been saying, instead, is that we are going to be unhappy. The narrative about protecting the environment/the planet should have always been about protecting ourselves from the planet, because we have learned to do that already. A more egocentric message could have worked better for the general public. [edited to hopefully sound less snarky]

jacquesm 3y ago
> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- savanaly 3y ago
  I don't see how the poster was violating that guideline. I say that as someone who frequently thinks people break that guideline.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- alienicecream 3y ago
  [flagged]
- gattilorenz 3y ago
  I know the op was in good faith, and the critique is not to him, but to how (I think) we failed communicating the correct risks to the general public in the last decades, which undermined the feeling of urgency/importance of the problem. I edited the original message trying to make that more explicit and appear less snarky, thanks for the feedback!
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    It's not the 'general public' that makes the rules and any one individual doing what they can isn't going to make a whole lot of difference as long as industry is exempted (which it is in plenty of places). Thanks for the edit, appreciated.
    - gattilorenz 3y ago
      Sure, but the urge of avoiding self-imposed extinction can change the political agenda and the regulations. I think we saw that for nuclear warheads (compare now vs the 60s), and (in the wrong sense) for nuclear power too. We’re sort of seeing it in the EU for AI right now! Of course the problem is that those feel like problems that could kill you or your kids, while climate change doesn’t. But again, that’s also connected to message formulation and correctly communicating the feeling of urgency…
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        That depends on who you talk to. But, to make it simple: if COVID19, which arguably was a far smaller problem than climate change (even though it isn't gone and never will be gone), I think you can see that the degree of lack of global policy and unity while dealing with that is any precursor of what our approach to climate change is (and has been so far) that we're royally fucked. You can't solve global problems with local policies, especially not if those local policies undo each others' effects.
    - fulafel 3y ago
      In a quite real sense the general public does decide the rules through representative demoracy in western countries, and the ignorance and complacency of votersin this respect arguably result chiefly from failures in communication.

ecf 3y ago

Which partially explains why China and Russia are full steam ahead with the current pace of climate change. Huge swaths of their land is going to become arable.

mc32 3y ago
China needs more arable land for food independence. Does Russia? It’s not like Muskeg becomes arable.

ricardobayes 3y ago

Not trying to be pedantic here, but Spain has like 5 different köppen climate categories. Up in Galicia and Asturias it can be high tens/low twenties with rain during the day while it can be 44C down in Sevilla.

sebazzz 3y ago

This year we've placed aircons in our entire home (Netherlands). With a garden to the south-west, and rising temperature, and good insulation, it becomes quickly too hot here. And we can of course heat our home in the winter too, but we mainly did it for the cooling capabilities.

voisin 3y ago
Did you look at passive ways to block the sun on the south and west walls? It can be very effective, have a low up front cost and no operating cost.
- sebazzz 3y ago
  I don't know what we can do. We already have a roll down sunscreen. Painting the house white is not something that will be accepted by the neighbours.
  - jwestbury 3y ago
    Though it depends on the particulars of your house and garden, there are ancient techniques -- "rediscovered" by modern permaculture -- that are effective here. Plant dense, deciduous shrubs and trees along the southern side of the house, especially in front of windows. The shade and the evaporative cooling provided by them should help to keep the house cooler in summer, whilst still allowing sun to heat the house during winter. It's not as effective as air conditioning, but it's more sustainable, certainly.
  - dutchabroad 3y ago
    Houses in Spain have stone floors, instead of carpet or wood that we often have in Netherlands. Maybe you can switch depending the season

odiroot 3y ago

And here in England, it's been miserable for over a week. Temperatures barely reaching 20s, if ever. Also rains on a daily basis.

helij 3y ago
I actually prefer this weather to 40 degrees Celsius.
- voisin 3y ago
  Me too. Easy to throw on additional clothes to keep warm, but at 40 Celsius there’s nothing you can do when out, baking in the heat and showing up everywhere sweaty.
- aldanor 3y ago
  Weather forecast in Dublin: +19 for the next ten days. Just perfect.
engineer_22 3y ago
You're getting down voted for the weather. That's amazing

throw0101a 3y ago

> The climate zones in Europe are being shifted northwards. In North American as well, at least per the hardiness zones that gardeners use: * https://gardeningcalendar.ca/gardening/gardening-basics/hardiness-zones-have-changed-with-climate-shift/ https://gardeningcalendar.ca/gardening/gardening-basics/hard... * https://landscapetrades.com/canadas-new-plant-hardiness-zones https://landscapetrades.com/canadas-new-plant-hardiness-zone... Similarly zones used in building codes: > However, with new research based on measured temperature data from over 4000 weather stations throughout North America over the last 25 years, the IECC designated changes to the CZ map for the first time in nearly 20 years. The outcome was that about 10% of counties in the U.S. were placed in a new CZ. In nearly all cases, the shift was to a warmer (lower) CZ, reflecting a general warming of the climate in those areas. The first set of maps below show the old CZs on the left and the new ones on the right. The shaded area across the west in the image on the right highlights the "dry" sub-climates. In most cases, the shift in CZ is relatively subtle. * https://www.jm.com/en/blog/2021/march/understanding-the-iecc-s-new-climate-zone-map/ https://www.jm.com/en/blog/2021/march/understanding-the-iecc...